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#106803 - 11/21/10 11:19 PM Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? [Re: Woodreb]
LifeAsMe Offline
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Great article! Thanks Johanna!

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#106825 - 11/21/10 11:43 PM Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? [Re: Woodreb]
MaxaLisa Offline

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Originally Posted By: Woodreb
And what I got from that article is that even if a probiotic is stabilized you should still refrigerate to protect from heat until you are going to use it.


Mine says specifically "do NOT refrigerate", and also to replace cap, which leads me to believe that they should not be exposed to air.

This link has an interesting argument against enteric coating, and also notes that it's the strain that is acid resistent, and not to rely on a coating:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_2003_Feb-March/ai_97994369/?tag=content;col1


Edited by MaxaLisa (11/21/10 11:44 PM)
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MaxaL (aka LisaT)

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Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
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#106854 - 11/22/10 12:31 AM Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? [Re: MaxaLisa]
Woodreb Offline
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Lisa,

That is an interesting article, although I thought the sudden discussion of mitochondrial dysfunction seemed to be from some other article and didn't exactly fit with the topic.

I can see the point about the coating process although, I also note that the article is from 2003 and would be interested to see if any other studies, like benefit or no benefit to the use of an enteric coating, has been performed since then. I can certainly see that capsules to protect the contents have the least chance of causing degradation, although since I'm not a formulator I'm really not familiar with the enteric coating process.

Perhaps the particular strains in the product you are using also have some low temperature sensitivity?
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Johanna

Caleb (aka Caleb-Moose)
Ciara(aka Ciara Belle, Black Devil)

RIP Aodhán, Rica, Max, Kelly - gone but never forgotten - forever in my heart

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#106882 - 11/22/10 03:10 AM Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? [Re: Woodreb]
MaxaLisa Offline

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I thought it was weird that the article side-tracked for awhile...maybe it was excerpted from somewhere?

I didn't notice the date on that article.

Here is an interesting blurb:
"While enteric coating keeps the ingredients in, it does not necessarily keep stomach acid out. Additionally, the process of enteric coating requires high temperatures which can also damage the fragile bacteria."
http://www.acidophiluspearls.com/

I have used acidophilus pearls before, and they worked well.
_________________________
MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
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#106952 - 11/22/10 09:44 AM Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? [Re: MaxaLisa]
Woodreb Offline
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You've got my curisity aroused about the coating process. I'm going to talk to a formulator friend of mine next weekmand find out a little more about the process.

It's an interesting blurb - I wish it was not in the context of a sales promotion.

It may be hard to get more impartial information because I think a lot of this information may be handled as trade secrets (speculation) and you're not necessarily going to find it even in a patent application.
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Johanna

Caleb (aka Caleb-Moose)
Ciara(aka Ciara Belle, Black Devil)

RIP Aodhán, Rica, Max, Kelly - gone but never forgotten - forever in my heart

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#107042 - 11/22/10 12:56 PM Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? [Re: Woodreb]
MaxaLisa Offline

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It'll be very interesting to see what you find out!
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MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
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#108730 - 11/27/10 01:33 AM Re: Probiotics - Saccharomyces [Re: MaxaLisa]
MaxaLisa Offline

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I remember seeing a dog on the boards test positive to the fungus Saccharomyces, and recalling that it is often found in probiotics, particularly when fighting the nasty infection Clostridium difficile - it is often used to fight antibiotic-associated diarrhea. Turns out that my Max tested positive for this allergy too.

I wanted to be sure to add this to this thread:

Patients are recommended to stop the intake of this medicine and to immediately contact their health care provider if they experience the following side effects: breathing difficulty, tightness in the throat, tightness in the chest, chest pain, wheezing and skin hives, rash, itching and swollen skin. Patients who experience these side effects might be allergic to Saccharomyces Boulardii. From here: https://www.pharmacyescrow.com/s34133-s-SACCHAROMYCES-BOULARDII.aspx

As a further side note, Max also tested positive for allergies to milk, carrot, and potato. I would say that 96% of the probiotics I looked at in the store today contained at least 1 of those ingredients. Who knew potato starch is often found in probiotics? So for the very sensitive dog, it may take a couple of different tries at finding the right probiotic.


Edited by MaxaLisa (11/27/10 01:49 AM)
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MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
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#109914 - 11/30/10 02:00 PM Re: Probiotics - Saccharomyces [Re: MaxaLisa]
Woodreb Offline
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I talked with my formulator friend this morning and yes, the enteric coating process is done at fairly high temperatures. The tablet needs to be "warm" for the coating to stick and the object is to spray the coating on quickly and "flash" off the solvent. If the solvent is water, then the tablet is warmed to around 30-40°C before spraying the coating on. The coating would be at a higher temperature than the tablet.

There are other processes where something like ethanol might be used as the solvent (more expensive process because of the cost of the ethanol). In these cases, the tablet would not have to be as warm as when using water as the solvent, nor would the coating be at as high a temperature. We didn't get in to specifics about the tablet temperature in this case.

Long and short - a good formulator would choose a coating process appropriate for the tablet characteristics. If there is a known thermal stability issue, they would opt for the more expensive process to keep the temperatures down.

I know this doesn't answer the specific questions about the enteric coating's useful in the probiotic. But it was interesting to shed a little more light onto the process itself and the fact that not all of the enteric coating techniques are necessarily done at high temeprature.

I think that arguments against the use of the coating maybe valid, but when in the context of marketing text you have to understand that they might be only telling a part of the story to build a better case for their product. It's not a lie, but it may not be the whole truth.


Edited by Woodreb (11/30/10 02:04 PM)
Edit Reason: Added another thought
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Johanna

Caleb (aka Caleb-Moose)
Ciara(aka Ciara Belle, Black Devil)

RIP Aodhán, Rica, Max, Kelly - gone but never forgotten - forever in my heart

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#110032 - 11/30/10 08:05 PM Re: Probiotics - Saccharomyces [Re: Woodreb]
MaxaLisa Offline

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This is cool information, thank you smile

Interesting that there are different was to process an enteric coating. I can see where this might get lost in advertising, or also people just not understanding.

This board has people that just know the coolest stuff smile
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MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

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#110069 - 11/30/10 08:59 PM Re: Probiotics - Saccharomyces [Re: MaxaLisa]
Woodreb Offline
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Or at least have friends they can ask. laugh

I'm an analytical chemist, but I've always had some interest in how things that are done by hand on a small scale are "re-invented" to go to mass production. So it's neat to learn about some of these things myself.
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Johanna

Caleb (aka Caleb-Moose)
Ciara(aka Ciara Belle, Black Devil)

RIP Aodhán, Rica, Max, Kelly - gone but never forgotten - forever in my heart

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