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#193241 - 11/12/11 01:53 PM Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: kelso]
MaxaLisa Offline

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Originally Posted By: kelso
...
Yeah, the low WBC's frown The vet was worried about an infection. What is the dose assuming that this does help and we should complete an aggressive tx for tick disease? I know you have posted it before....


The dose recommended on the tick list, and in some of the older literature on this stuff, is 10mg/kg *twice* day, which is roughly 5 mg/lb twice a day. It's about twice what most vets will use. 8 weeks treatment and then evaluate. But that's a dog not on steroids.

I think of the steroid and abx combination as duking it out in the body to see which one will "win" and have the dominant effect in the body.

High dose steroids, moderate dose abx, no way that the abx will dominate and so you are, at best, at a stalemate, if this is infection.

In an ehrlichia-type illness, if ITP is induced, steroids are used to get platelets and red blood cell counts out of the danger zone, and then slowly weaned (while watching blood counts) as the doxy starts taking care of the infection, ultimately getting to doxy alone.

The question is whether that 8 week treatment starts when steroids are done, dunno.

Doxy at a standard dose, inhibits bacteria from growing. At a higher aggressive dose, it also has some killing action. I always get the technical terms for those things reversed!
_________________________
MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
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#193264 - 11/12/11 06:28 PM Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: MaxaLisa]
Cassidy's Mom Offline
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Registered: 02/10/10
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Get better soon, Kelso!!! hugging

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#193268 - 11/12/11 07:54 PM Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN]
arycrest Offline
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Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 2488
Loc: Central Florida
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Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
That picture of him is STUN-NING. Wowza. That would look nice printed with that orange leaf between his paws just popping! (almost wrote pooping which...figures)

And the two of them...I am glad she has such a good job.
Ditto ... That's a beautiful picture!!! And of course Allie looks beautiful too!!! wub
_________________________
Gayle
Faith, Ledgie & Scooby
My Bridge Kids: Andy, Abbey, Tasha, Tex, Echo, Yukon, JR, Too, Niki, Bo, Ringer, Kelly, Honey, Mac, Slider & Bruiser

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#193343 - 11/13/11 02:51 AM Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: MaxaLisa]
kelso Offline
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Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 1490
Loc: Kansas
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Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
Originally Posted By: kelso
...
Yeah, the low WBC's frown The vet was worried about an infection. What is the dose assuming that this does help and we should complete an aggressive tx for tick disease? I know you have posted it before....


The dose recommended on the tick list, and in some of the older literature on this stuff, is 10mg/kg *twice* day, which is roughly 5 mg/lb twice a day. It's about twice what most vets will use. 8 weeks treatment and then evaluate. But that's a dog not on steroids.

I think of the steroid and abx combination as duking it out in the body to see which one will "win" and have the dominant effect in the body.

High dose steroids, moderate dose abx, no way that the abx will dominate and so you are, at best, at a stalemate, if this is infection.

In an ehrlichia-type illness, if ITP is induced, steroids are used to get platelets and red blood cell counts out of the danger zone, and then slowly weaned (while watching blood counts) as the doxy starts taking care of the infection, ultimately getting to doxy alone.

The question is whether that 8 week treatment starts when steroids are done, dunno.

Doxy at a standard dose, inhibits bacteria from growing. At a higher aggressive dose, it also has some killing action. I always get the technical terms for those things reversed!


Thank you all again, every wish and thought is so appreciated falltree

Bonnie- love the "got milk" reference! I think it does make them look quite distinguished myself smile

Jean - lol on the pooping
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile! That's how I felt with that pic. I use my iphone and Canon powershot alot for pics I want to take, but the Nikon D60 always gets the shots I end up loving! The leaf was not planned! Kelso is a GREAT poser smile

Lisa-

I think it is bacteriostatic (inhibiting) v. bactericidal (killing)?

So...are you thinking that if we wait until the next labs (in 2 weeks) and they are IMPROVED we should start the aggressive dose? (seeing the addition of doxy again as the cause for the change in labs?)

That is actually what I feel like - that we are at a stalemate. Frustrating, can't imagine how Kelso must feel. frown He is good, but not "Kelso" not sure how to describe it.

I was going to post about this in a seperate thread but if anyone reads this that happens to have to have their dog on long term meds such as steroids and antibiotics like doxy....our vet calls in the prescriptions to walmart and we get them off " the $4 dollar list." I think it is neat you can get the generic meds for dogs from the Walmart pharmacy for a discounted cost as well...if you go through the vet it might be triple the cost or so.

The script says "K9" at the top, kindof funny!
_________________________
-Steph

GSD's
Allie, gotcha 7/2007
Riko z Vom Weberhaus, "Fez" 7/29/2012

forever our angels
Meeka, b. 10/31/1994-11/26/2006
Kelso, b. 9/3/2006-2/9/2012


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#193345 - 11/13/11 03:02 AM Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: kelso]
kelso Offline
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Loc: Kansas
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Also wanted to mention

the lab report also said that monocytes were low: 1 ref (3-10)
Eosinophils low: 0 LOW ref (2-10)
absolute monocytes 46 LOW ref (150-1350)
absolute eosinophils 0 LOW ref (100-1250)

Why does he have NO eosinophils on multiple reports?

and also commented that neutrophils appear slightly toxic (STILL?!??!?!?!?!?)

and "few reactive lymphs present"

That looks more like infection to me?
_________________________
-Steph

GSD's
Allie, gotcha 7/2007
Riko z Vom Weberhaus, "Fez" 7/29/2012

forever our angels
Meeka, b. 10/31/1994-11/26/2006
Kelso, b. 9/3/2006-2/9/2012


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#193347 - 11/13/11 04:38 AM Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: kelso]
MaxaLisa Offline

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Posts: 19440
Loc: Northern CA
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It really does sound like infection to me, but there's nothing there, that I know of (and there's a lot I don't know!) that distinguishes between autoimmune or infection. I believe that toxic neutrophils may occur for a variety of reasons, something about they are not forming right as they are pumped out of the bone marrow - I don't know enough to say anything with confidence about that.

Monocytes, can be a marker of inflammation, and eosinophils for allergies, and both may be suppressed from the pred. I have absolutely no idea how to interpret blood counts for a dog on pred. I'm having that problem with Max here.

Reactive lymphocytes...Max had those in his paw, as well as reactive bone....vet and I just looked at each other and shrugged our shoulders. Pathology report wasn't much more helpful.


Originally Posted By: kelso

Lisa-

I think it is bacteriostatic (inhibiting) v. bactericidal (killing)?

LOL, yes that's it, but ask me in about three minutes, and I will have forgotten again rofl

Quote:
So...are you thinking that if we wait until the next labs (in 2 weeks) and they are IMPROVED we should start the aggressive dose? (seeing the addition of doxy again as the cause for the change in labs?)

That is actually what I feel like - that we are at a stalemate. Frustrating, can't imagine how Kelso must feel. frown He is good, but not "Kelso" not sure how to describe it.

Yes, that is what I was thinking. Though, I'm not sure I would wait the two weeks, you may still end up in a stalemate and have wasted two weeks, so to speak.

It's too risky to reduce the pred without knowing, but there is no reason to not increase the doxy. Of course, you could go with seeing what happens in the next two weeks as a first step.

Bottom line, is you really don't know anything more than you did at the start of this frown frown frown


Just putting these here in case we need them....

Previous labs:
http://germanshepherdhome.net/forum/ubbt...cent#Post187832

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?...;hl=en_US#gid=0
_________________________
MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

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#193349 - 11/13/11 05:23 AM Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: MaxaLisa]
MaxaLisa Offline

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Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 19440
Loc: Northern CA
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Went back and read a couple of the first posts. Had forgotten about the fever. Sure is hard for me to think it's not infection....
_________________________
MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

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#193396 - 11/13/11 03:40 PM Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: MaxaLisa]
Hollysmom Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/05/11
Posts: 48
Likes: 1
My girl ran a fever for quite sometime, she was on antibiotics for about 3 months total.
I am glad your vet is keeping the pred up, even though you get to the point that you want them gone. He will get his muscle tone and such back once the pred is gone, I promise you. I will try to find some of my girls medical records and see what her blood results were showing during her time on pred.
Will let you know when I locate them (we are getting ready to move and stuff is packed.)

Day by day, week by week, month by month. It seems endless and your hopes get so high, then they just crash down.
My thoughts are with you

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#194255 - 11/17/11 04:02 PM Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: Hollysmom]
MaxaLisa Offline

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Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 19440
Loc: Northern CA
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When does kelso go back for blood tests? Just curious.
_________________________
MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

Top Likes: 0 
#194602 - 11/18/11 11:26 PM Re: Kelso is sick :( -anemia/recent DHLPP.. [Re: MaxaLisa]
kelso Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 1490
Loc: Kansas
Likes: 38
greet


He is going this Friday, after Thanksgiving turkeytalk I am off so am glad to get to go with him for once!!

The only bad thing about that is then it is monday before we know anything.... or maybe they will call on sat as they are open I think.

Thanks again Hollysmom, it does help very much that you have been through this sort of thing. I remember reading that they can get a fever with IMHA/ITP

And Lisa I can't say thanks enough to you either pilgrims
_________________________
-Steph

GSD's
Allie, gotcha 7/2007
Riko z Vom Weberhaus, "Fez" 7/29/2012

forever our angels
Meeka, b. 10/31/1994-11/26/2006
Kelso, b. 9/3/2006-2/9/2012


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