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#198488 - 12/11/11 02:42 AM Re: Kelso has been admitted overnight [Re: MaxaLisa]
kelso Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 1490
Loc: Kansas
Likes: 38
Lisa-
thank you for being on here right now. My husband specifically said I needed to post this in the hopes that you would respond (I have told him all of you advice over the past few months). He was like...you have to call her!

We are ready to do anything and everything at this point. Feel a bit like tick infection has not been taken seriously by the vets? not sure
, and it "could" be something else

I will tell you that when we called the vet tuesday about the "chills" we only had a day left of the doxy (2nd round of 30 day tx) She said it was ok to not continue...the little Lisa on my shoudler was saying NO!!!

So I asked the ER vet tonight, I specifically mentioned that he has not been treated with aggressive doses. He said he thought the two rounds would have kicked anything....

The chills were before he was off of it, but now we have a devastating set back a couple days after he is off of it.

I am going in there tomorrow with the intent that he should be put on the 5mg/lb twice daily dosing unless they have a real good reason not to.

I have no idea what the labs are either at this point, its just scary

have to get to bed, can't wait to see my boy

thank you again, and again
_________________________
-Steph

GSD's
Allie, gotcha 7/2007
Riko z Vom Weberhaus, "Fez" 7/29/2012

forever our angels
Meeka, b. 10/31/1994-11/26/2006
Kelso, b. 9/3/2006-2/9/2012


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#198489 - 12/11/11 02:52 AM Re: Kelso has been admitted overnight [Re: MaxaLisa]
Qyn Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 1964
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Likes: 47
Steph, hugging thanks for letting us know about Kelso. The petechia in the eyes and gums with the swollen muzzle could still have occurred as a result of the crate escape so ... try to remain calm. Until tests are given and results obtained it is only natural to second guess what is going on ... you have acted quickly and he is where he can receive the treatment he needs. hugging

Best wishes - I am thinking of Kelso and sending good and positive thoughts by the truckload.
_________________________
Alison
~~~~~~~~~~
Nix (derivative of Phoenix) Black GSD born 6 June 2011 (Gotcha day 9 Dec 2013)

Quynne gsdhalo - Black Female GSD - Sept 29, 2004 - 11 Nov 2013 Deeply missed

If you don't agree with me ... you are just not listening well enough. smile

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#198490 - 12/11/11 03:22 AM Re: Kelso has been admitted overnight [Re: kelso]
MaxaLisa Offline

Global Moderator

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 19473
Loc: Northern CA
Likes: 255
If you need it, pm'ed you my number frown

Originally Posted By: kelso
We are ready to do anything and everything at this point. Feel a bit like tick infection has not been taken seriously by the vets? not sure, and it "could" be something else

I think it is like those special "lyme doctors" that get in trouble with the medical board - it takes a special vet to understand exactly how to deal with these tick diseases. I call them tick diseases since that is what they most behave like and most of the time the exposure is there or at least possible. Yes, they "could" be something else, but it really doesn't matter if they respond in the same way, does it?


Quote:
I will tell you that when we called the vet tuesday about the "chills" we only had a day left of the doxy (2nd round of 30 day tx) She said it was ok to not continue...the little Lisa on my shoudler was saying NO!!!

Not only say NO!!!, but maybe jumping up and down and shouting a bit?


Quote:
So I asked the ER vet tonight, I specifically mentioned that he has not been treated with aggressive doses. He said he thought the two rounds would have kicked anything....

Yeah, that's a huge problem. For a dog showing some symptoms, on the tick list, and the resident vets on the list (one remaining, one left years ago), the treatment is 10 mg/kg twice a day for 8 weeks. That's for a dog that's not having the most serious of symptoms, and certainly a dog that's not on pred. In my mind, and this isn't written anywhere, but I start counting the treatment time once the steroids are stopped. Until the steroids are stopped, the doxy is just trying to keep "whatever" from digging deeper.

Ehrlichia dogs sometimes have a certain look to them, it can be similar to a dog on steroids - might be hard to distinguish what you are seeing hugging


Quote:
The chills were before he was off of it, but now we have a devastating set back a couple days after he is off of it.

I am going in there tomorrow with the intent that he should be put on the 5mg/lb twice daily dosing unless they have a real good reason not to.

Perhaps an appeal to logic....

Kelso initially got better on both pred and doxy. On pred along, he didn't improve, and went backwards in some ways.

Back on doxy, labs improved, however, it wasn't the aggressive dose of doxy, and the steroids have been very high. Now, very shortly after the doxy is stopped, this happens. In what world does it make sense to stop it?

Doxy in regular dosages does not kill, but prevents bacteria from growing (bacteriostatic, right? had to google it!). The rest is up to the immune system to keep in check. However, if the dog is on pred, then the immune system is suppressed and cannot finish the job.

There is evidence that bacteriostatic antibiotics, or at least doxy, also has bactericidal properties *when used in high enough doses*.

It does not make sense to me, when a dog is responding, yet still has serious and severe symptoms, that medication is stopped, or even decreased. Yet, this is done all the time.

Qyn made some excellent points about the damage that might have happened because of the crate incident. Poor boy, what must have been going through his head.

I'm off to see if I can find a few links....

_________________________
MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

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#198492 - 12/11/11 03:39 AM Re: Kelso has been admitted overnight [Re: MaxaLisa]
bianca Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/10
Posts: 8875
Loc: Queensland. Australia
Likes: 149
Steph, I am so sorry. hugging I have no wisdom to impart but I am keeping you all in my thoughts and prayers hugging
_________________________
Molly Moo (aka The Piranha, 4 legged mouth) GSD (31/10/09)
Cooper GSD (The Gremlin) 19/10/11
Texas - Tabby cat (Feb 1996-2013) Run free sweet Teppie
Paris - Tabby cat (Feb 1996-2013) Run free my beautiful girl.

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#198501 - 12/11/11 04:59 AM Re: Kelso has been admitted overnight [Re: bianca]
MaxaLisa Offline

Global Moderator

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 19473
Loc: Northern CA
Likes: 255
It's hard to find a written reference to the aggressive dose, *twice* a day. It was written as a standard of care in one reference I'm thinking of, but the newer edition has the lower dose. I did find the following that at least mention teh 10 mg/kg BID (which is roughly 5 mg/lb BID):

http://veterinarycalendar.dvm360.com/avhc/content/printContentPopup.jsp?id=586457
Look under #8, Treatment for Ehrlichia, a stronger recommendation in #8 under the coinfection with lyme and ehrlichia, and, honestly, you have no idea what this is or if there might be coinfections.

http://www.fvmace.org/FVMA%2082nd%20Annu...0in%20Dogs.html
Supports the higher dose for 30 days.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-DN35GU...bid&f=false
This veterinary ICU book supports the higher dose

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1939-1676.1996.tb02061.x/abstract
Just interesting to see the length of treatments here.

Babesia could be a coinfection (there are different babesias too), and the treatment that I'm doing for Max follows some babesia treatment (doxy, cipro for him because it's cheap, and pulsing metro once a month).
http://www.actavetscand.com/content/52/1/27


http://www.parasitesandvectors.com/content/pdf/1756-3305-3-33.pdf
On page 9, in the last paragraph in the Discussion, just before the conclusion, it talks about the effect of steroid suppression in a dog with ehrlichia...yes, it will have a profound increase in platelets, etc., but needs to be used with caution.


eta: while I don't think this is entirely IMHA, this had some good info:
http://www.avsg.net/documents/ImmuneMediatedHemolyticAnemiaHeatherMineoDVMDACVECC.pdf


Do update us when you can hugging




Edited by MaxaLisa (12/11/11 05:29 AM)
_________________________
MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

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#198507 - 12/11/11 06:08 AM Re: Kelso has been admitted overnight [Re: MaxaLisa]
arycrest Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 2488
Loc: Central Florida
Likes: 86
hugging hugging hugging Steph & Kelso hugging hugging hugging

Sending lots of hugs and prayers your way that Kelso's doing better when you check with the ER ... please give him a huge hug from me!!!
_________________________
Gayle
Faith, Ledgie & Scooby
My Bridge Kids: Andy, Abbey, Tasha, Tex, Echo, Yukon, JR, Too, Niki, Bo, Ringer, Kelly, Honey, Mac, Slider & Bruiser

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#198511 - 12/11/11 08:12 AM Re: Kelso has been admitted overnight [Re: arycrest]
Jane Jean Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 2575
Loc: Southwest, MI
Likes: 41
Originally Posted By: arycrest
hugging hugging hugging Steph & Kelso hugging hugging hugging

Sending lots of hugs and prayers your way that Kelso's doing better when you check with the ER ... please give him a huge hug from me!!!

From me too... hugging
_________________________
Onyx
Karlo
Gambit
SweetClover3.17.94~11.24.08 Kacie 7.21.2005-5.01.2015

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#198514 - 12/11/11 08:51 AM Re: Kelso has been admitted overnight [Re: Jane Jean]
JeanKBBMMMAAN Offline
Rescues Rule Admin

Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 4618
Likes: 165
I definitely think the swelling is from the crate deal...

Is it possible that his thyroid has crashed in all of this - the shaking, etc? Dr. Dodd's and Michigan State do the thyroid panels.

Hoping he is doing better this morning.
_________________________
Help People Help Pets!
www.imom.org

Check Out the BDBH Howliday Blog

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#198524 - 12/11/11 09:38 AM Re: Kelso has been admitted overnight [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN]
PositiveDog Online   coffee
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 4895
Loc: Ohio
Likes: 132
I am reading this with tears in my eyes - I can "hear" your fear for Kelso.

I will be thinking of you both and wishing the best results of this overnight visit. So happy you have a supportive and caring husband to help you take care of Kelso.

hugging
_________________________
Bonnie

www.dogtors.com

With approval of my friends:

SamCat, 03/2011

Seiko, Solo, Sophie, Skye and Buddy - bridge dogs who taught me so much

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#198525 - 12/11/11 09:41 AM Re: Kelso has been admitted overnight [Re: MaxaLisa]
Mary Jane Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/16/10
Posts: 2696
Likes: 125
Steph,

It's great that an internist familiar with Kelso's problems will be consulting this morning. This is just so much to handle.

You and your husband are really in tune with your boy to recognize all those signs.

All possible wishes for better news this morning. Like others, I'll check back.

take care,
Mary Jane

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