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#208594 - 01/26/12 07:17 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: Liesje]
DancingCavy Offline



Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 4065
Loc: Syracuse, NY
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Originally Posted By: Liesje
Every great once in a while I do have to change up and if so it's because I was wrong in the first place not to use that method, not because I have a continuum of training methods and will slowly move downward if one thing doesn't work.


And that's fine. smile I would hate to think anyone out there will resort to using a correction simply because they haven't discovered another method that would work.

I'm not saying corrections are bad or that anyone who uses them is abusive to their dogs. Everyone I've 'listened' to on this thread seems to use them fairly. They take the time to make sure the dog understands what is being asked and what the result will be for non-compliance. Not everyone takes that time, however.

Yes, some trainers don't like to use pressure and consider that a form of a correction or positive punishment. I'm not one of them, though. I don't use a lot of pressure with Risa due to her temperament and handler softness. But I do use it.

Everyone has a preference and that's fine. I just get tired of people assuming that, because someone doesn't utilize corrections in their training, that they're somehow kowtowing to their dog. Positive training isn't permissive training. There are still consequences to 'bad' behavior.


Edited by DancingCavy (01/26/12 07:19 PM)
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#208598 - 01/26/12 07:32 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: Jane Jean]
cassadee7 Offline
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Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1699
Loc: Southern WA
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Originally Posted By: Jane Jean
It is a dance for sure....I love watching someone doing obedience with such great timing, I wish I had that naturalness in me.


One time in the last class they were trying to teach footwork for the turns. I was lost. I had no idea people actually practiced certain footwork (left, right, make a T with left foot, bring right around, another T... etc) to have perfect turns that the dog always knows what to expect. Is that what most people do? I am not to that point yet. I just watch that part in awe, lol.

Last night the teacher talked about OB being like dressage. She said we should try to use smaller movements even in corrections and communicate in a refined way to our dogs. Interesting concept. So then, a collar correction does not involve a big yank with 2 feet of leash. It can be smaller (but only if the dog is responding, otherwise it becomes nagging) and we can hold the leash closer to the collar for better effect.
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Kira vom Snoozhaus ZZZ CGC!!!

Saber's Blog: http://stuffsaberdoes.blogspot.com/

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#208600 - 01/26/12 07:43 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: cassadee7]
DancingCavy Offline



Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 4065
Loc: Syracuse, NY
Likes: 113
I don't pay THAT much attention to footwork. I do pay some attention to it because the signals I give will help Risa know what is coming. For example, when I want her to do an auto sit, I slow my pace down for 2-3 steps before I stop. It's subtle; Im sure most people don't even notice it. But Risa does. I also use my shoulders to direct her when we're going to make a right or left turn. I drop my left shoulder back when we turn left and drop my right shoulder back to make a right turn. I also have very specific footwork for pivots (but that's only because you lose points if you do it wrong in rally). Otherwise, I just move at a fast pace and don't focus that much on my footwork. wink

I always like thinking of heelwork as a dance. It symbolizes the partnership between handler and dog. And makes me think of canine freestyle which is more exciting for us!
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#208605 - 01/26/12 07:58 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: DancingCavy]
GrandJan Offline
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Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1972
Loc: NE PA
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Originally Posted By: DancingCavy
I just get tired of people assuming that, because someone doesn't utilize corrections in their training, that they're somehow kowtowing to their dog. Positive training isn't permissive training. There are still consequences to 'bad' behavior.

I guess I need you to spell out the consequences for bad behavior in purely positive training. Is it a "time out", or is it a "we'll try this again later when I've worked out what I did wrong"? Yes, I agree that many, many mistakes are the result of human errors, but many are also the result of strong-willed, determined dogs.

I did agree with what you said about the dog having to know what you want before you correct. I don’t care if it’s in the basement, the open field, or in the middle of Citizens Bank Park - the dog either knows the command or he doesn’t. Granted, I don’t have dogs with issues – fear, aggression, weak nerves, etc. – but I really think my dogs are in the majority, not the minority. As far as that goes, I also think the most posts on any training matter here come from people who have dogs with issues – which may help many people- but it’s just not the norm. Sorry if I’ve offended anyone, but I’ve read over and over how people tiptoe around situations because their dogs have issues and they’re trying to work them out. I feel for you – I really do - it must be incredibly difficult. But just take a minute and think – not every dog has an issue, so not every dog has to be “guided” into behaving.

I am perfectly willing to agree to disagree with the rest. I may get a lot of fluff about this, but - IMO - training dogs is not much different from training children. You practice at home (or in a class), and then you go out and put that training to the test. If you have done your job well, there are no surprises and your dog/child knows what to expect. Sure there are distractions, but you assume the role of the master/parent and you get your dog/child under control. Seriously, do you want to sit in a restaurant while a child is throwing a tantrum and the parent insists on giving the child a “time out”? As I may have mentioned, you don’t reason with a 2-year-old or a butthead of a dog; you put on your adult cap and control the situation, whether it be with bribes or discipline – your choice. I don’t care for bribes.

As far as “why” my dog doesn’t listen, well…., I’m not interested. We have worked hard enough at home on the drill and what to expect, so the dog has to trust me when I tell it to do something. It will get all the proper praise and rewards when it complies, but it will also see the back side of my disapproval if it doesn’t.

Trust me – I am NOT a hard=a$$, and this is only my practice when I am convinced my dog knows exactly what I want and when. I don’t willy-nilly hand out neck jerks just because I’m having a bad day.

My dogs are in no way perfect, nor am I. We have our share of tantrums. But why am I so confident? Because my dogs have not been extremely socialized. Yes, they went to puppy obedience and then level one and two, and I learned a lot. But they go where I go – not to parks or parades or hospitals or anywhere else just to get exposure. Why? Because I’m not going to be taking them there, so I take them where I go. Would I be afraid to take them to those places? No. And guess why? They are focused and…… well-behaved! With their prong collars on just in case they decide I’m not the boss.
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#208607 - 01/26/12 08:03 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: cassadee7]
GSD07 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 313
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Shawn, I'll tell you one of my favorite things to do with my dog that you may find useful for your ob goals. When I walk Anton on my own, I pick up a pace that is comfortable for both of us to carry on for a long time, and then we just walk without stops for an hour or two. He heels ('with me'), or walks in front ('go ahead').

I love these walks because we are so in tune with each other. I don't know how to explain it, but I just don't need to think if he follows me or he sees what I see, I trust him that he does. It doesn't sound like a training advice, no rewards, no treats, but it will teach both of you to move in unison, know the best pace for you, stop bumping into each other, or sniff, or anything, you would feel as one entity. You also would be surprised how much focus you would get.

Just sharing.

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#208608 - 01/26/12 08:03 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: GrandJan]
Liesje Offline
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Registered: 02/10/10
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Jan, other than the socialization (I do take my dogs everywhere) I completely agree.
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#208611 - 01/26/12 08:08 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: Liesje]
cassadee7 Offline
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Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1699
Loc: Southern WA
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Oksana, that's a lovely way to describe it. I think more long walks with Saber would definitely help! I am such a baby about the cold weather that I have missed out on walks too many days lately. I will take your insight as incentive to get back out there with her.
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Shawn
Mom to five kids and
"Saber" NN Jette vom Wildhaus CD BN RA CAX CGC JJ-N HIC
Kira vom Snoozhaus ZZZ CGC!!!

Saber's Blog: http://stuffsaberdoes.blogspot.com/

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#208612 - 01/26/12 08:10 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: cassadee7]
cassadee7 Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1699
Loc: Southern WA
Likes: 26
Question...

How do you know if your dog is "shutting down" because of corrections being too much? What signs does a dog give that differ from boredom or tiredness or distraction?
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Shawn
Mom to five kids and
"Saber" NN Jette vom Wildhaus CD BN RA CAX CGC JJ-N HIC
Kira vom Snoozhaus ZZZ CGC!!!

Saber's Blog: http://stuffsaberdoes.blogspot.com/

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#208616 - 01/26/12 08:19 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: cassadee7]
Kayos Offline

Can't Figure Tech Stuff Out

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 11662
Loc: McAlester, OK
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Airplane ears, looking away, lip licking, yawning. Basically stress behaviors.

With a dog as large as Saber I do pay attention to footwork as they need to see the cues or they will bump you.
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#208618 - 01/26/12 08:27 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: Kayos]
Jane Jean Offline
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Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 2575
Loc: Southwest, MI
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I've been training with my instructor to learn footwork/handling. It is helpful to know when to step timed w/the commands, and the turning footwork. Because I do SchH obedience, of course the about turns are different~ my trainer has learned from me about drive building, etc. She has had an awakening on the way we train compared to the way she always has. I can't wait for her to get a Mal or GSD!
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