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#208476 - 01/26/12 01:03 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: Liesje]
Ruthie Offline
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Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 991
Loc: Michigan
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Originally Posted By: Liesje
Yep, puff out your chest and march when you heel! If you are worried about her, you are probably slightly hunched and dropping your left shoulder. This causes stress b/c of your body and "pushes" the dog into a lagging position. In SchH our trainer tells us to march forward whether our dog is there or not. Don't inhibit your pace either. Most GSDs need a nice pace to look their best. My "normal" pace is faster than a lot of AKC peoples' "fast" pace.


Good advice. Best exercise for me was removing the leash in protection work and healing for bites as a reward. Bison is extremely obedient, but REALLY wants that sleeve. He knows heel well, so a perfect dog to practice this with. Without the leash as a crutch I HAD to pay attention, use presence, body language, and clear voice commands to "make him" heel. Was a fantastic learning experience for me.
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#208513 - 01/26/12 03:18 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: Ruthie]
Kayos Offline

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True on the pace and body language. Head up, chest back, I try to look at the dog from the corner of my eye while I am looking ahead. If you look at the ground about 10 feet in front of you can keep an eye on the dog that way. Glancing back and turning your head drops your shoulder and causes the dog to lag.

Lies I have kept lots of judges on their feet in the AKC ring as I stride out smartly. I have been run into lots of walls too. rofl

I know this class you are in Shawn and I would tell you to find another one but there is not another one. shrug At least you can keep food in a place you can jackpot her that is new, at one time that was not allowed either. I was enrolled in this class and lasted one session, Havoc was not ready to be in a class where I was not able to reinforce him with food at a high rate. Sadly, he had better obedience that the instructors dog. Young dogs learning to heel and stay in groups are under stress and need a high level of reinforcement. The instructor would rather you use praise and correction to teach the dog and that is fine for her but she leaves no room for the dog at Saber's level that still needs more reinforcement. Saber needs time to learn that praise is also reinforcementand the food is coming. So glad you can take her and jackpot her for an especially good effort. I actually think I told the instructor that no one was going to tell me how to reinforce MY dog in ANY class. End of me in that class. rofl

I think putting go sniiff on cue gives you the control over it. I think when you do this at some point you get to what Lies referred to, the dog knows when it is business because you told them so and the need tt sniff is put on the back burner. They know eventually you will let them. I always allow my dogs time to sniff at a new place. Just my preference.

I think you do a good job of weeding through all the different methods and preferences and find the best fit for you and Saber. Keep up the good work. cheers
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#208517 - 01/26/12 03:23 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN]
Liesje Offline
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Registered: 02/10/10
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Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN


PS - Liesje, I think my dogs like training, and get excited when we do stuff at home, or at stores, or when we are out, but I tend to not like a lot of obedience classes, so that's all on me. Too long, too much repetition, too much waiting around, too serious, I just don't have enough motivation to participate unless it's a really good class. And for a while I was in weekly classes for about 5 years - I think I burned out. But I do the routines home and out and about, just, and enjoy the training parts.


True, I did find such classes rather boring after a while. I don't really ever train any of my dogs to do any one type of thing for that long all at once and it seems at these types of classes we were always expected to have our dogs out with us. For the AKC ring stuff I prefer to do drop-ins where I'm doing the training at home but can show up, try a mock ring/course, and have extra sets of eyes offer their critiques.
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#208531 - 01/26/12 04:14 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: Liesje]
Kayos Offline

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I agree, I find I use the class as a place to proof but with a new person to obedience they often need the class to show them how too.
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#208540 - 01/26/12 04:37 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: Kayos]
cassadee7 Offline
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You guys are dead on! I guess it takes more than one person telling me in different ways before my light bulb goes on smile Last night the instructor said to me 3 or 4 times to pick up the pace, Saber needs to move faster, speed it up etc. she also noted that Saber was sniffing/lagging and I was slowing down, turned sideways looking over my left shoulder watching her as I tried to get her to come forward. Exactly what you guys pointed out. I am definitely going to change my body position and energy in the ways you described. She did perk up and heel better when I moved faster. smile
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#208561 - 01/26/12 05:52 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN]
Jane Jean Offline
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Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 2575
Loc: Southwest, MI
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Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
popcorndrink

Can't wait to see what happens!

PS - Liesje, I think my dogs like training, and get excited when we do stuff at home, or at stores, or when we are out, but I tend to not like a lot of obedience classes, so that's all on me. Too long, too much repetition, too much waiting around, too serious, I just don't have enough motivation to participate unless it's a really good class. And for a while I was in weekly classes for about 5 years - I think I burned out. But I do the routines home and out and about, just, and enjoy the training parts.

This is what I meant when I said obedience is boring. Classes where you are grouped together, with lots of downtime will bore a dog(and their handler).
At home or on a training field, it is much different.
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#208580 - 01/26/12 07:00 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: Jane Jean]
Schnickle Fritz Offline
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i was a slow walker, too. i was told if i am not walking fast enough the dog just looks wonky. of course, fritz is long and tall. so, i have to power walk in OB. if i am in class and it looks like i am going to run someone over i just do a loop inside the circle or outside if there is room. i find by picking up the pace the dog flows better and is more engaged with me. if you are not out of breath walking youa re walking to slow...
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#208582 - 01/26/12 07:02 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: GrandJan]
DancingCavy Offline



Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 4065
Loc: Syracuse, NY
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Originally Posted By: GrandJan
Itís ignoring the bad behavior until you can wrangle a way to turn it into good behavior - and you can't always adjust situations. The dog Ė and the child - has you trained.


It's not 'bad behavior' if the dog hasn't been trained to that level. If you've only ever worked on heeling at home, you cannot say your dog knows how to heel (for example). He knows how to heel in a familiar environment with minimal distractions. Unless you've practiced in many locations with a variety of distractions and made sure the dog really understands what heel means. And, if you've done that, you probably don't need to use corrections.

I think, when one resorts to corrections, they often don't take the time to consider they whys of what their dog is doing. WHY did the dog choose not to heel when I asked him to? The answer to that question tells you what you need to work harder on. Do you need to build up focus around children more? Is your cue unclear?

Just because you don't utilize corrections does not mean your dog is non-compliant or the one training you. Nor does it mean that you simply manage your dog's life so that they're never put in a situation they cannot handle. (You should do that at the beginning, but not forever.) I don't correct poor focus, sniffing, or other inattentive behaviors in my dog. I simply work harder on making what I want clear and making the exercises more fun. And I'm seeing outstanding results and a much more focused dog.



Edited by DancingCavy (01/26/12 07:04 PM)
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#208588 - 01/26/12 07:08 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: DancingCavy]
Liesje Offline
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Registered: 02/10/10
Posts: 2022
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Likewise, just because one uses corrections doesn't mean they "resorted to" it. Now I can't speak for Shawn but in my own training, there are several behaviors I train from the very beginning using corrections (or rather, pressure/escape...I'm not really sure if that's the same as a "correction" but usually the purely positive folk lump them together). I don't resort to anything in my training. I pick the tool and method depending on the behavior and the dog and that's what I use. Every great once in a while I do have to change up and if so it's because I was wrong in the first place not to use that method, not because I have a continuum of training methods and will slowly move downward if one thing doesn't work.
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#208593 - 01/26/12 07:16 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: Schnickle Fritz]
Jane Jean Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/15/10
Posts: 2575
Loc: Southwest, MI
Likes: 41
Originally Posted By: Schnickle Fritz
i was a slow walker, too. i was told if i am not walking fast enough the dog just looks wonky. of course, fritz is long and tall. so, i have to power walk in OB. if i am in class and it looks like i am going to run someone over i just do a loop inside the circle or outside if there is room. i find by picking up the pace the dog flows better and is more engaged with me. if you are not out of breath walking youa re walking to slow...

My dog is big too, and I'm short legged. So I tend to walk fast, and then I lose my dog on the turns. It is a dance for sure....I love watching someone doing obedience with such great timing, I wish I had that naturalness in me.
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