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#209039 - 01/28/12 07:12 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: DancingCavy]
cassadee7 Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1699
Loc: Southern WA
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Interesting Jamie. I have not often tried to force compliance, except way back when she was in puppy class and the trainer said if they do not SIT when you say SIT, you do not repeat the command... you just make them sit. As in, pressure on the back end. I didn't have to do much of that.

However, when she hit this age where she started to try me a bit, she has occasionally refused to down. It is almost always the down she tries me on these days, proably because it is darn hard to make a dog down if they don't want to. I try not to even ask for a down anymore if she is in a "mood" (I can usually tell). But, what if you said DOWN and your dog just stared at you? Do you enforce it somehow? Correct in some way? Ignore it?
_________________________
Shawn
Mom to five kids and
"Saber" NN Jette vom Wildhaus CD BN RA CAX CGC JJ-N HIC
Kira vom Snoozhaus ZZZ CGC!!!

Saber's Blog: http://stuffsaberdoes.blogspot.com/

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#209042 - 01/28/12 07:24 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: cassadee7]
DancingCavy Offline



Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 4065
Loc: Syracuse, NY
Likes: 113
When Risa doesn't comply, I simply ignore her for several seconds and cue her again.

For example, if I cue a weave between my legs and she walks in front of me instead, I look up at the sky for a bit. Then I call her back to me, reset, and do it again. She didn't do what I asked for so she doesn't get a reward. You can also use a no reward marker like "oops!" to let your dog know they just lost the opportunity to earn a reward. (Risa tends to get a bit shut down when I use a no reward marker so I don't use one when I train.) It's important to wait several seconds between the missed cue and the re-cue so it doesn't become a repeated command. You also don't want to cue a behavior, have your dog not respond, ask for a different one, have your dog do it, and reward it. You basically end up rewarding the missed behavior if you do that!

If she repeatedly misses a cue in a training session, I usually stop asking for it. No sense in me getting frustrated with her. I simply work on something else and try and figure out why I wasn't getting compliance for the next time we work. Was I unclear? Have I increased the criteria too much (too distracting, adding in other behaviors before it)? Is she in pain? Is she worried about something (this is Risa of course)?



Edited by DancingCavy (01/28/12 07:27 PM)
_________________________
~Jamie~
Veteran MF-GrCH Dancing Cavy's Pain in the Butte W-FDM/MF MF-M Vet InS/E R-FE/N PCD BN RAE RL1 (AoE) RNX TKP CA CGC WCX3 Risa
Wylde Kitsunegari of Aesir CGC WCM Kyu
It Just Keeps Getting Better: Risa's Blog
Pet Portraits

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#209045 - 01/28/12 07:34 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: DancingCavy]
cassadee7 Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/22/10
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Loc: Southern WA
Likes: 26
Great advice, thanks Jamie!
_________________________
Shawn
Mom to five kids and
"Saber" NN Jette vom Wildhaus CD BN RA CAX CGC JJ-N HIC
Kira vom Snoozhaus ZZZ CGC!!!

Saber's Blog: http://stuffsaberdoes.blogspot.com/

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#209088 - 01/28/12 11:12 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: cassadee7]
MaxaLisa Offline

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Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 19428
Loc: Northern CA
Likes: 254
Originally Posted By: cassadee7
....
My problem, if it is a problem (I am not sure) is that I have used food, lures, etc for so long that she started to EXPECT it and blow me off sometimes if she didn't see a treat on me (bribe issue I guess). So nnow the treats are off somewhere else and I randomly run and get some for her if she is being obedient.

.....

I need to figure out how to go from nice heeling in the living room, yard, or down the sidewalk with a happy focused dog because I have treats 'somewhere' (she does SO much better if I have one in my hand) to a dog who will focus and heel without treats, say, on a walk (even if I jackpot her when I get home). Is it just a matter of spending more time on it? More practice? And then I always wonder: am I expecting TOO much from her at 14 months? Or am I cutting her too much slack for being young?


I'm just passing through here, interesting thread! but this caught my eye....

Yes, this is an issue with continuing with *lures* rather than fading to *rewards*. This can be addressed, and I think a dog that is still in "lure" mode, will be more likely to shut down if abruptly changed to collar corrections.

Indy was a well-trained dog, but I never stopped rewarding her throughout her life - she earned those rewards, like I earn my paycheck every day. But they weren't bribes or lures, and transitioning from one to the other can be a bit of a challenge if the lure is very ingrained. She was also very food motivated, so I did have to often bring lesser value treats to get her focus back on things when we were first training, and save the better treats when she did things that were equivalent to a Nobel Prize wink
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MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

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#209093 - 01/29/12 12:22 AM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: MaxaLisa]
cassadee7 Offline
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Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1699
Loc: Southern WA
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Lisa, so true. When I started training Saber (first dog I ever trained) I didn't know there was a difference between luring and rewarding. I just thought if you got the behavior using food, that was positive training. Only much later did I understand the difference and by then I had lured myself into a corner smile

She is doing well with my transition away from luring so far. I got some SUPER crooked sits... even 'wandering' fronts... when I first removed the lure, but she is getting it now. Funny what you say about low value treats and focus. I JUST figured that part out this month because when I had leftover salmon in a bag on the mantle, her focus went OUT the window. She was whining and flipping out because it was there and couldn't focus on the work. I had thought the higher value treat would yield better focus but thank goodness I figured out this isn't the case or my class last week would have been a disaster!
_________________________
Shawn
Mom to five kids and
"Saber" NN Jette vom Wildhaus CD BN RA CAX CGC JJ-N HIC
Kira vom Snoozhaus ZZZ CGC!!!

Saber's Blog: http://stuffsaberdoes.blogspot.com/

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#209096 - 01/29/12 02:02 AM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: cassadee7]
MaxaLisa Offline

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Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 19428
Loc: Northern CA
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It sounds like you are well on your way to getting her on the right track - great job!

Funny about the value of the treats, huh? With Max, it's not that way at all, but with my complete food hound, I had to be very careful not to overstimulate her with the value of the treat.
_________________________
MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

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#209117 - 01/29/12 08:44 AM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: MaxaLisa]
DancingCavy Offline



Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 4065
Loc: Syracuse, NY
Likes: 113
Shawn, you're making great strides with Saber. Don't get frustrated. wink So many people accidentally lure too long and unintentionally make the food part of the cue. You're not alone. My rule of thumb, when using a lure to train, is 3 times and gone. I will go back to a lure once or twice if my dog appears confused in the early stages. But I get it out of the cue ASAP so that I don't end up with a dog who needs that food lure there to perform.

The fact that the lure is missing and/or her age might have a lot to do with her occasional refusals. In this case, however, I would not go back to a food lure with her. I would cue a down and, if she doesn't comply, simply ignore her for a bit and try again. If she does down, mark it and have a PARTY! I'm talking whooping around all excited and playing a super fun game of tug or giving her a bunch of rapid-fire treats. Then there will be no doubt in her mind what it is you wanted AND she will be more likely to do it again because it was definitely worth it to do so. You won't have to have the party every time from now on (you can wean it down too). I would only use the party when she does something amazing and to build more excitement/desire into the behavior itself.
_________________________
~Jamie~
Veteran MF-GrCH Dancing Cavy's Pain in the Butte W-FDM/MF MF-M Vet InS/E R-FE/N PCD BN RAE RL1 (AoE) RNX TKP CA CGC WCX3 Risa
Wylde Kitsunegari of Aesir CGC WCM Kyu
It Just Keeps Getting Better: Risa's Blog
Pet Portraits

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#209135 - 01/29/12 11:28 AM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: DancingCavy]
cassadee7 Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1699
Loc: Southern WA
Likes: 26
Awesome, we both love parties! I just love it when she gets happy and has that big panting smile on her face and is prancing around wagging her tail smile

We just recently started using a tug as a reward rather than food all the time and that is going VERY well. She loves it and it is also helping her learn self control because she can be in a tug frenzy and I'll ask for a sit and out and she gives it, knowing another session is coming. Not long ago you couldn't get a release from a tug at all with her.
_________________________
Shawn
Mom to five kids and
"Saber" NN Jette vom Wildhaus CD BN RA CAX CGC JJ-N HIC
Kira vom Snoozhaus ZZZ CGC!!!

Saber's Blog: http://stuffsaberdoes.blogspot.com/

Top Likes: 0 
#209183 - 01/29/12 06:12 PM Re: Are collar correction depressing for the dog? [Re: cassadee7]
Kayos Offline

Can't Figure Tech Stuff Out

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 11662
Loc: McAlester, OK
Likes: 240
I am just catching up here and missed about 2 pages but yes people pinch ears, bonk on heads with hands, bonk on muzzles etc to get better retrieves, better holds of the dumbbell etc.

I ear pinched my first GSD and she was the let dog I used that with, I do not like that method and I have nice retrieves without it. Even the SchH folk commented on the speed of Havoc's retrieve yesterday. No compulsions there.

Remember tho: a correction s information the dog about its behavior. A correction can be a fair reminder of the behavior we except or it can be very com pulse to the point of abusive. The word correction has really gotten a bad rap but it should not be so. A proper correction is clear, concise, black and white information to the dog.

You can check out Dawn Jec's Choose to Heel program too. She is in Puyallup and does do seminars or you can buy her book. It is a great heeling book.
_________________________
Kathy

PTE,AC,URO3,AG2,UCD Xtra!Xtra! v. TeMar CDX,GN,RE,CGC,TC,HIC, Bh "Havoc" 6/4/07
PAM, URO3, UCD, UACH Tidmores Rising Star Lydia "Mayhem" CD,BN,RE,AX,AJP,OFP,P1J,CA,DN,HT,TKN,TC,CGCA 4/4/12

Lucky, Wolf, Max, Kayos - gone not forgotten. gsdhalo

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