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#209148 - 01/29/12 12:31 PM Re: SPOON! The Tick [Re: DancingCavy]
MaxaLisa Offline

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Originally Posted By: DancingCavy
Okay. I thought it seemed really long, too. Like treating someone with chemo and then checking to make sure they're cancer-free a year later. I only waited 6 weeks after removing the tick to find out she had Lyme in the first place.

Yes, it makes monitoring treatment difficult. Titers do go down slowly, and the SNAP may be positive for awhile. This is one reason I like the multiplex in a dog right now, I think the test, combined with their discounted shipping @ cornell is under $100, and gives more info than the c6. I'm not sure when I would run the c6, wonder if 6 weeks after is too soon.

Quote:
She's on 100 mg twice a day for 28 days. Standard protocol. From what little research I've done, most dogs respond to that no problem and it kicks the disease to the curb. I know there are always exceptions but I hope, this one time, that Risa isn't one of them.


Once a lyme dog, always a lyme dog. Lyme is chronic, and at best you hope to knock it into remission and you hope that Risa's immune system is strong enough to keep it there. Lyme takes different forms in the body and antibiotics cannot kill all of them.

If not treated properly, you run the risk of relapse (highly likely), or down the road maybe you start seeing incontinence or kidney issues that you start blaming on other things, or early debiliting arthritis, or pancreatitis, and the list goes on.

If you treat conservatively and only for 4 weeks, hope, but do not expect that this is the last you see of her Lyme. If you ever revaccinate for anything, I would run bloodwork and C6 a couple of months after the vaccination rather than at the same appt. Having a test like the C6 or the mulltiplex is handy. Can't tell you how many cases of lyme "flares" we see on the tick list.

Quote:
Yes. Her bloodwork showed a slightly low, clumped platelet count when I had it run in July. But I also had a heartworm/tick test run at the same time and it was clear. I would bet money that she picked up Lyme recently from that tick on her. I will probably run bloodwork on her again at her annual appointment. But, honestly, looking at her values over time; I'm pretty sure she's always had those anomalies. Every dog's normal is different.

Well, unless you have years of bloodtests on a spreadsheet, you have no idea what her "normal" is. For this reason, I'm glad that she is getting doxy, just in case, as amoxicillin wouldn't touch the stuff that interferes with platelets.

Too much confidence in the snap test is also dangerous. Not only can it be wrong (we have seen this frequently), but there are more tick diseases that cause platelet issues that it doesn't test for than those it does test test for.

Quote:
At least, so far, she seems to be tolerating the doxy fine. She only just had her second dose a half hour ago, though.

This is good news smile

Be sure to take note of any positive changes you see, be sure to write them down somewhere, so you will learn to recognize her subtle signs if she flares later.
_________________________
MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
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#209189 - 01/29/12 07:04 PM Re: SPOON! The Tick [Re: MaxaLisa]
DancingCavy Offline



Registered: 02/11/10
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Loc: Syracuse, NY
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I actually did put her years of bloodwork into a spreadsheet so I could compare. Her counts aren't always outside the normal range, but they're usually low. Since I have 4-6 different blood work results to compare to, I can see that this seems to be her normal. Whether she's having gut issues at the time or not.



I'll call the vet tomorrow and see if we can't have a discussion about increasing the dosage. Beyond that, I guess I'll just hope beyond hope we can kick this thing in the butt and never have to worry about it again. The way things are going these days. . .it seems like that's asking for a miracle. frown

Poop was a bit loose and mucusy today. But that could be due to the pork ribs she had for dinner rather than the doxy. (Dog food store can't get the food I've been feeding Risa. The distributor is out. frown )


Edited by DancingCavy (01/29/12 07:10 PM)
_________________________
~Jamie~
Veteran MF-GrCH Dancing Cavy's Pain in the Butte W-FDM/MF MF-M Vet InS/E R-FE/N PCD BN RAE RL1 (AoE) RNX TKP CA CGC WCX3 Risa
Wylde Kitsunegari of Aesir CGC WCM Kyu
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#209198 - 01/29/12 07:48 PM Re: SPOON! The Tick [Re: DancingCavy]
MaxaLisa Offline

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Doxy usually does not cause loose stools, so I would first suspect the food. It usually causes nausea. However, we know that those things can be very individual!

I was looking for C6 values, thought I found a good comparison here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2223868/
BUT, they vaccinated the dogs in that study, which alters immune system response, so is hard to apply. What was interesting in Table 2, is that the vast majority of these dogs were treated with the aggressive dose of doxy (called HD there).


Ah, forgot you do have a spreadsheet!!
Originally Posted By: DancingCavy

And it took me a minute, but I forgot that I have to being VERY careful looking at the numbers, since the normal ranges are often different from year to year.

While she probably has some sitehound in her that will run higher RBC and lower WBC, I am concerned with the last July numbers, generally showing more immune suppression. In some sense, it is even surprising that she showed a positive lyme test, since sometimes a compromised immune system won't, and that C6 only starts to elevated shortly after treatment starts.

Frankly, I do worry about your vet, but hope that she pays more attention to this. We have all sorts on the tick list, and this is one reason some owners end up supplementing conservative treatment with Bird Biotic.
_________________________
MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

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#209202 - 01/29/12 08:19 PM Re: SPOON! The Tick [Re: MaxaLisa]
DancingCavy Offline



Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 4067
Loc: Syracuse, NY
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Well, Risa did go through some pretty serious gut stuff last year. From around September 2010 to May-ish 2011, she was having pretty much non-stop loose stool/diarrhea. And nausea. It was the longest she's ever gone with that sort of gut stuff. It's usually 6 months at most. That could certainly have affected her immune system. I almost ran a CBC along with the Snap test when I took her in on Monday to see where she stood since I never got around to re-doing it in the fall.

I don't know how easy it will be to judge whether or not Risa has Lyme flares. It was hard enough to really notice any differences from mid-December til now. Her pace on walks went from her usual trot to a walk. But she does that when she's afraid or worried about something too. And it's not always clear which it is. She was also a bit hesitant to hop up onto things and slow going up stairs or into the car on occasion (but not consistently). Since she has back problems as well, this makes it hard to determine which is causing it since she acts like that when her back is sore too. She was also being a bit more spooky than is usual but, again, she has had moments like that before too.

We are expecting a call from Risa's TCVM vet next month to check and see how her gut is holding up. (Aside from occasional loose poo after eating pork, things have been really good!) I will discuss the Lyme issue with her as well and see if she has any herbs or acupuncture ideas that might help supplement Risa's immune system and help kick Lyme's butt.

*HUGE SIGH OF SADNESS*


Edited by DancingCavy (01/29/12 08:21 PM)
_________________________
~Jamie~
Veteran MF-GrCH Dancing Cavy's Pain in the Butte W-FDM/MF MF-M Vet InS/E R-FE/N PCD BN RAE RL1 (AoE) RNX TKP CA CGC WCX3 Risa
Wylde Kitsunegari of Aesir CGC WCM Kyu
It Just Keeps Getting Better: Risa's Blog
Pet Portraits

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#209213 - 01/29/12 08:50 PM Re: SPOON! The Tick [Re: DancingCavy]
MaxaLisa Offline

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Hopefully you will see some noticeable changes. With Indy, she just had a harder time moving, and would become afraid of the dark wub

Samento and Teasel Root is often used for Lyme, but I really don't know how effective it is.
_________________________
MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

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#209421 - 01/30/12 07:08 PM Re: SPOON! The Tick [Re: MaxaLisa]
DancingCavy Offline



Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 4067
Loc: Syracuse, NY
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Left a message for my vet to call me about the doxy dosage. Didn't get a call back. Will print out the information, drop it off tomorrow (her day off), and request a call back ASAP on Wednesday so we can discuss it.

May start looking for a new vet too. Especially if things don't go well. I'm already pretty displeased at how the initial Snap test was handled. And the knowledge that I might not have been informed of the 'weak positive' had this been her annual bloodwork. . .

*Sigh*
_________________________
~Jamie~
Veteran MF-GrCH Dancing Cavy's Pain in the Butte W-FDM/MF MF-M Vet InS/E R-FE/N PCD BN RAE RL1 (AoE) RNX TKP CA CGC WCX3 Risa
Wylde Kitsunegari of Aesir CGC WCM Kyu
It Just Keeps Getting Better: Risa's Blog
Pet Portraits

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#209499 - 01/31/12 04:38 AM Re: SPOON! The Tick [Re: DancingCavy]
MaxaLisa Offline

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Registered: 01/26/10
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hugging
_________________________
MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

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#209586 - 01/31/12 06:26 PM Re: SPOON! The Tick [Re: MaxaLisa]
DancingCavy Offline



Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 4067
Loc: Syracuse, NY
Likes: 115
Dropped off the info. Thought about it some more today. With her low WBC numbers, even if that is normal for her, could that play a part in her not being able to tackle the disease on her own? I also worry that her long-standing history of gut issues has either caused a weakened immune system and/or is caused BY a weakened immune system. Maybe she doesn't have the capacity to battle Lyme on her own and needs the stronger dosage and longer treatment time.

While she seems to be less achy in the joints since starting doxy, she's still not 100%. And her increased spookiness hasn't dissipated either. Just today, she got really freaked out by a noise on her walk. While this isn't entirely abnormal for her, I wonder if it's significant because of the positive Lyme test. Perhaps the dosage isn't high enough.

Or maybe I'm just grasping at straws. I don't know. I know you only get one chance to treat it the first time. I would definitely feel better hitting it hard. I just don't know if I can convince my vet that it would be a good idea. I am going to try, though.

At least her gut is fine. She finally pooped again today and it was picture-perfect like usual. Usual as of late anyway. smile No problems with doxy at least.


Edited by DancingCavy (01/31/12 06:27 PM)
_________________________
~Jamie~
Veteran MF-GrCH Dancing Cavy's Pain in the Butte W-FDM/MF MF-M Vet InS/E R-FE/N PCD BN RAE RL1 (AoE) RNX TKP CA CGC WCX3 Risa
Wylde Kitsunegari of Aesir CGC WCM Kyu
It Just Keeps Getting Better: Risa's Blog
Pet Portraits

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#209672 - 01/31/12 10:42 PM Re: SPOON! The Tick [Re: DancingCavy]
MaxaLisa Offline

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Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 19439
Loc: Northern CA
Likes: 255
Originally Posted By: DancingCavy
Dropped off the info. Thought about it some more today. With her low WBC numbers, even if that is normal for her, could that play a part in her not being able to tackle the disease on her own? I also worry that her long-standing history of gut issues has either caused a weakened immune system and/or is caused BY a weakened immune system. Maybe she doesn't have the capacity to battle Lyme on her own and needs the stronger dosage and longer treatment time.

I think that this is a concern. I had this concern with Max - all his blood counts went low, and he was IgA, IgM, and IgG deficient - figured he just can't mount a proper response. Risa tends to run on the lower end, so I don't know exactly what it means when that goes low.


Quote:
While she seems to be less achy in the joints since starting doxy, she's still not 100%. And her increased spookiness hasn't dissipated either. Just today, she got really freaked out by a noise on her walk. While this isn't entirely abnormal for her, I wonder if it's significant because of the positive Lyme test. Perhaps the dosage isn't high enough.

Typically you see a quick response to doxy, but all symptoms are slow to resolve.


Quote:
Or maybe I'm just grasping at straws. I don't know. I know you only get one chance to treat it the first time. I would definitely feel better hitting it hard. I just don't know if I can convince my vet that it would be a good idea. I am going to try, though.

To be honest, I don't know what the optimal treatment for Lyme is. I don't know if it's more important to treat for 6-8 weeks initially (rather than 28 days) or to treat at the higher dose, or if they are equally important. I just am not sure with Lyme. I always finished off each round of abx with Indy with a round of panacur since she didn't tolerate flagyl, as a hope that it helped. I used a fair amount of over the counter abx. You have a few weeks to think about what you are seeing and what you want to do.

Quote:
At least her gut is fine. She finally pooped again today and it was picture-perfect like usual. Usual as of late anyway. smile No problems with doxy at least.

This is great news!
_________________________
MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

Top Likes: 0 
#209730 - 02/01/12 06:29 AM Re: SPOON! The Tick [Re: MaxaLisa]
Good_Karma Offline
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Picture perfect poop. Interesting concept. I think only a person who has a dog with digestive issues can fully understand this. smile

Glad to hear she is doing okay. Continued good thoughts for a successful treatment.
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Leah

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