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#268309 - 01/18/13 05:10 AM Re: Miss Moo is off her rocker :( [Re: MaxaLisa]
bianca Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/10
Posts: 8875
Loc: Queensland. Australia
Likes: 149
Patti thank you hugging I do have some good probiotics in the fridge that I have for Cooper so will start that tomorrow! Poor girl is getting more pills than food almost laugh

Thank you again Lisa, her gums appear normal and healthy pink. I need to do another order for Coops supplements so I can justify ordering the oregano too! I will post back after I get it and see how she is.

She's been pretty good today apart from when I went to flop on the bed (in the aircon) and watch a little tennis today - she started breathing really fast again.

I just don't know what I am missing. She sleeps in our room every single night beside me (on the floor) and occassionally she will go and sleep in there during the day if Brad is in bed.

Would it be really crazy to think maybe she is worried if we are all in the bedroom during daylight???? She is the 'protective' one.
_________________________
Molly Moo (aka The Piranha, 4 legged mouth) GSD (31/10/09)
Cooper GSD (The Gremlin) 19/10/11
Texas - Tabby cat (Feb 1996-2013) Run free sweet Teppie
Paris - Tabby cat (Feb 1996-2013) Run free my beautiful girl.

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#268314 - 01/18/13 07:36 AM Re: Miss Moo is off her rocker :( [Re: bianca]
Shepherds Offline
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Registered: 12/02/12
Posts: 513
Loc: Australia
Likes: 13
Hi Bianca.....I also agree with Patti and Lisa. Good gut health is essential for the production of neurotransmitters as most originate from the process beginning In the gut.

That aside....here are some of my random ponderings on Molly Moo....(if its a fear/anxiety related issue)..and again some of these might have been covered in the early days...but sometimes it helps to get a fresh perspective....

Has anything bad happened to her anywhere or scared her when both you and your hubby were together?
Does her reaction always start in the same area of the house, or when you and your hubby are together or apart?
How long have you been in this house before her episodes started? Did she come to this current house as a puppy?
Is it always around the same time of day?
Or is it always the result of a certain activity you do?
Who owned the house previously and why did they sell it?
Is there any negative energy in the house (and I don't mean that in a nasty awful way....but just when times are tough and stressful as they had been for us when Kobe first got diagnosed with the liquid herbs saga etc...the stress and energy is our house was quite oppressive and as a whole the dogs reacted to that energy if you know what I mean).....dogs know and feel so much more than what we could ever hope too....
What age was she when it started...and is she neutered (and what age) and was it before or after neutering it started? Was she a nervy puppy..or rock solid as a baby?
How long did it start after Coopers arrival, what is he doing at the time she starts the behaviour, how does he react once she starts on the cycle?? I only ask that as my eldest boy is the dibber dobber in our household...especially with any puppy's we have had... I know when a puppy is up to no good as Levi will come belting into whatever room I'm in looking very nervous and upset with the there is some crap going down out there that you need to go and sort out look on his face.....

And one final suggestion is to keep a diary of Molly's behaviour.... When her behaviour starts, record the time, day, place, symptoms, food she had had prior to etc....basically any small detail that you can think of (even weather conditions, temp,who was in the house, where in the house she was, what was happening around her..etc etc)...And over time that might give you some clues....it's all too easy to forget the smaller details when there's so much going on and to record it means you can look back.

Anyway...as I said just some random thoughts from me...and my apologies if all have been previously thought of and already covered......
_________________________
Life isn't always about the destination....don't miss the journey

Current heart, couch and bed hoggers, Reza and Argi
Always missed - never forgotten, Friday, Manta, Kobe & Levi

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#268361 - 01/18/13 02:56 PM Re: Miss Moo is off her rocker :( [Re: Shepherds]
MaxaLisa Offline

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Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 19487
Loc: Northern CA
Likes: 256
I was wondering about the gums - if they are pale, that can ometimes be a parasite issue.

My concern, and it just makes me ache, is that her body is producing some kind of toxic by-products from a disease process. Many bacteria and fungi and other icky things, will produce toxins that affect the brain. I see this with mom, when her pathogenic bacteria start getting worse, then soon after she will have a uti and the culture will show something. Sommetimes it doesn't, but it's a matter of time and when you test. When this proces starts up, he gets fearful and confused.

If vet care weren't so expensive, you could afford to test and have nothing show up, which was always Max and indy's speciality.

Gut health would be an important firt step. When the OoO gets there, let me know and we'll rethink the dosage. I saw some guidelines that used higher amounts than I use, and maybe we want to make sure we go high enough to give it a good trial.


Edited by MaxaLisa (01/18/13 02:59 PM)
_________________________
MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

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#268367 - 01/18/13 03:15 PM Re: Miss Moo is off her rocker :( [Re: MaxaLisa]
Braverhund Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/10/10
Posts: 5435
Loc: Massachusetts
Likes: 159
Thinking thinking lots... about making a super-happy gut flora as well as enhancing absorption of nutrients, to help maintain stability of mood. Hmmm. You know what? Along with the probiotics, you could, when you feel up to it, possibly consider adding some frozen (thawed) raw green tripe, intended for dogs. Eeeew! sick Stanky, horrificly disgusting, but I buy it in frozen patties and semi-thaw it so it doesn't stink much when Grimm gets it added to meals. It helps provide the thriving flora we want in a gut, as well as live, active enzymes to help increase bioavailability. wow You're doing so much for Moo already, but I hope this suggestion, along with the probiotics, might help, if you decide to try.
_________________________
Patti
Frauchen von:

Grimm van den Heuvel, "Donnerpratzen"
Smokey The TeddyLion, DLH purrbuddy

Dir gehŲrt mein Herz

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#268397 - 01/18/13 09:34 PM Re: Miss Moo is off her rocker :( [Re: Braverhund]
shepnterrier Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 2032
Loc: MA
Likes: 79
Can you interrupt the behavior?

If not:

These episodes could be partial seizures (taking place in only parts of the brain, not the whole brain). If so, likely located in the occipital lobe (vision, if occipital lobe impaired symptoms are distorted vision/ hallucination)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_partial_seizure

If occipital lobe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occipital_lobe

Last paragraph in that entry:

"Epilepsy and the occipital lobe

Recent studies have shown that specific neurological findings have had an impact on idiopathic occipital lobe epilepsies[4] Occipital lobe seizures are triggered by a flash, or a visual image that contains multiple colors. These are called flicker stimulation (usually through TV) these seizures are referred to as photo-sensitivity seizures. Patients who have experienced occipital seizures described their seizure as seeing bright colors, and having severe blurred vision (vomiting was also apparent in some patients). Occipital seizure are triggered mainly during the day, through television, video games or any flicker stimulatory system.[5]Occipital seizures originate from an epileptic focus confined within the occipital lobes. They may be spontaneous or triggered by external visual stimuli. Occipital lobe epilepsies are etiologically idiopathic, symptomatic, or cryptogenic.[6]Symptomatic occipital seizures can start at any age, as well as any stage after or during the course of the underlying causative disorder. Idiopathic occipital epilepsy usually starts in childhood.[7] Occipital epilepsies account for approximately 5% to 10% of all epilepsies.[8]"

It has been hypothesized that migraines and seizures are closely related, and many migraines get triggered by the same things that trigger occipital lobe seizures.
_________________________
Sarah
Chip vom Dog Pound, border terrior, Director of Rodent Control, CGC
Elly von Rescue, GSD, CGC, HI(C)
Captain Jack, Mama Blue, Little Orca, BŁbchen, Tux, Cherub (pocket lions)


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#268419 - 01/19/13 04:22 AM Re: Miss Moo is off her rocker :( [Re: shepnterrier]
bianca Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/10
Posts: 8875
Loc: Queensland. Australia
Likes: 149
Oh god I feel sick thinking it could be one of the above frown But thank you so much for the links and ideas hugging How do you test for infrequent seizures (I have deja vu now)?

Marie, thank you so much for taking the time for my Moo hugging I did start a diary but then forgot when she went so long without an episode but I will start it as of now.

Nothing bad has ever happened to her (or us) since we've had her. She has these turns at all times of the day/night but usually during the day and it doesn't seem to matter where Brad is - although in saying that, he spends a lot of time in bed.
We have moved houses and states since we have had her, she had a few weird times before we moved too.

I don't know the background of the house except it was an old farm house. The couple we brought it from moved (to the same suburb we came from would you believe!!!) and had a dog which they left with the neighbour hammer

She was spayed at 6 months and this started probably in the last 1- 11/2 years (she is 3) it happened before we brough Coop home. She was a snot as a puppy, full of confidence.

The energy in our house is usually crap to put it politely. We brought her home as a puppy only 3 months after Brad came out of the spinal unit so there has always been tension and things haven't been easy I guess.

Patti I have this I bought predominately for Coop but have given it to Moo, should I give it every few days?

http://www.carmspack.com/feed-sentials/sunday-sundae/

I can type out the ingredients if it helps?

Lisa, thank you. I just don't know what type of tests I should even look at? When do I start to think it is just 'her' and not something wrong???? frown I don't know what to do. Thank you for the help with the OoO, I ordered a.45 oz bottle (I have no idea how big that is!).

Sarah thank you. Nope I can't interrupt her at all frown It's like nothing can get through to her when she is fully freaking out. I had a look at those links thank you. Is this something that needs an MRI for testing? I just don't know where/what to do.

Man I am so sorry this is a novel, but my mind is so confused now. Am I hearing zebras when it is horses????
_________________________
Molly Moo (aka The Piranha, 4 legged mouth) GSD (31/10/09)
Cooper GSD (The Gremlin) 19/10/11
Texas - Tabby cat (Feb 1996-2013) Run free sweet Teppie
Paris - Tabby cat (Feb 1996-2013) Run free my beautiful girl.

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#268420 - 01/19/13 04:24 AM Re: Miss Moo is off her rocker :( [Re: bianca]
bianca Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/10
Posts: 8875
Loc: Queensland. Australia
Likes: 149
Oh should add I wormed her yesterday (all wormer including Hyatid) and started her on probiotics tonight.

ETA: Patti, we cannot get any form of green tripe here- it is illegal to sell frown


Edited by bianca (01/19/13 04:25 AM)
_________________________
Molly Moo (aka The Piranha, 4 legged mouth) GSD (31/10/09)
Cooper GSD (The Gremlin) 19/10/11
Texas - Tabby cat (Feb 1996-2013) Run free sweet Teppie
Paris - Tabby cat (Feb 1996-2013) Run free my beautiful girl.

Top Likes: 0 
#268424 - 01/19/13 04:46 AM Re: Miss Moo is off her rocker :( [Re: bianca]
MaxaLisa Offline

Global Moderator

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 19487
Loc: Northern CA
Likes: 256
Bianca, the .45 oz bottle is small, you'll get it and think you were robbed. BUT, let's try 4 or 5 drops twice a day, on an empty stomach, and separate from the probiotics by two hours.

I am confused too bianca, and I have a hard time thinking that this is just a behaviour thing in a dog so young. Reading sarah's post - wondering if there are any tv noises going on, something high pitched in the area you can't hear, etc.
_________________________
MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

Top Likes: 0 
#268426 - 01/19/13 06:42 AM Re: Miss Moo is off her rocker :( [Re: MaxaLisa]
bianca Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/10
Posts: 8875
Loc: Queensland. Australia
Likes: 149
Thanks Lisa, I figured it was probably small, oh well! It's a wee while off obviously but while I think of it, will it do any harm to smear a little peanut butter on it so she eats it? She has RMB for breafast.

It is entirely possible but if Brad is in bed, the tv usually isn't on. She is super sensitive to noises = she reacts if she hears almost anything.
_________________________
Molly Moo (aka The Piranha, 4 legged mouth) GSD (31/10/09)
Cooper GSD (The Gremlin) 19/10/11
Texas - Tabby cat (Feb 1996-2013) Run free sweet Teppie
Paris - Tabby cat (Feb 1996-2013) Run free my beautiful girl.

Top Likes: 0 
#268427 - 01/19/13 06:57 AM Re: Miss Moo is off her rocker :( [Re: MaxaLisa]
Shepherds Offline
Addict

Registered: 12/02/12
Posts: 513
Loc: Australia
Likes: 13
Following Sarah's line of thought re epilepsy and Lisa's its not behavioral (and given the Info you provided there doesn't appear to have been anything thats happened to have triggered behavioral)....plus Shepherds being known to have a genetic predisposition to epilepsy got me thinking.

Anyway...long story short...please check out the following link and in particular the Complex Partial Seizures description.

http://www.canine-epilepsy.com/FAQ.html

There is also further useful info in that link around medication, alternative therapies and the inclusion of vitamin B6.....
_________________________
Life isn't always about the destination....don't miss the journey

Current heart, couch and bed hoggers, Reza and Argi
Always missed - never forgotten, Friday, Manta, Kobe & Levi

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