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#275998 - 03/18/13 09:12 AM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Kayos]
JeanKBBMMMAAN Offline
Rescues Rule Admin

Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 4618
Likes: 165
Back to the beginning - I am always surprised when people are surprised that dogs, selectively bred for years to do certain things (Labs carrying dead birds for people, Beagles helping people kill rabbits, Schipperkes hunting rodents, and even the repugnant dogs fighting other dogs) do those things. Labs turned in to shelters for grabbing the family bird, herding breeds nipping, all of those things that we created and then try to excuse and then, to compound it and make it worse, act as if we do a few things "right" these traits will magically disappear.

I find that a dangerous thing - denial of our animal's basic traits and instincts - and that is what I am getting at.

When I walk my Chow mixes, I know what I have. I know what they are capable of, and I know all the love and cookies - or corrections (if they worked) and firmness - will not change that very base of who they are. So I am aware and alert, and watchful for situations and things that will trip their triggers.

If I thought it was all in how I raised them, I would be blissfully ignorant of their capabilities - their innate, inherited tendencies. I might put them in situations where they are guaranteed to fail, and that failure might not just hurt them, but other people or animals. All because I felt that *I* could overcome hundreds (thousands really for the ancient breeds) years of genetics. And on top of that, the individual genetic makeup of that particular dog.

http://notesfromadogwalker.com/2012/11/20/its-not-how-theyre-raised/
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#276002 - 03/18/13 09:31 AM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN]
Chris Wild Offline
Administrator... and Alpha Bitch of the Wild Bunch

Registered: 01/19/10
Posts: 1061
Loc: Michigan, USA
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Good job getting the thread back on track, Jean.
I agree, different breed traits which run very strongly within breeds and are present with no human influence, in fact often present despite human attempts to squelch them, are some of the strongest and most obvious evidence for the impact of genetics.

Anyone who has spent significant time with a litter of young puppies cannot deny this either. Personality differences start emerging at just a few weeks old, and become even stronger and more divergent over the next few weeks despite all of the pups experiencing identical environmental factors.

Certainly no one is saying that environment has no effect and that good vs bad ownership won't impact the outcome. But the amount of effect it has is greatly misunderstood by many. No amount of environmental factors can turn gold to lead, or vice versa. Genetics are still in charge.

Take any temperament trait you wish, and genetics will provide a range of possiblity for that trait. Environment will only determine where within that range the final outcome falls. For ease of illustration, on trait X genetics will allow a range of say 6-8 on a 1-10 scale. One environment may produce a 6, and a different environment an 8, and there may be a measureable difference between the two. But no amount of environmental influence can make that dog a 5 or a 9. It simply isn't possible.
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#276019 - 03/18/13 11:00 AM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Chris Wild]
JakodaCD OA Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 1378
Loc: Old Lyme CT
Likes: 27
This cracked me up
Quote:
I wish you would have told me that last night. I cried all night long! Or maybe that was at the idea of another snow storm.


no leah I didn't think you were talking about us:)

Jean SO RIGHT!!!! A little OT but to add to what you said, I am on a chicken forum (yep I have chickens),,it amazes me the amount of people who are shocked when their dog kills one because their chickens are free ranging..One poster was mortified and wanted to kill her mom's gsd because the dog has now killed 3-4 of her chickens (at different times).."Mom" doesn't want to lock up the dog..Well DUH lock up the chickens! LOL..
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Diane
Ozzie von Kleinen Hain
Jakoda's Kholee
Tranquillo's Kizzy
Danger Danger von Kleinen Hain aka "Masi"
"Angel" Harmonyhill's Hy Jynx aka "Jynx"
"Angel" Jakoda's Jagged Edge aka "Jag"
"Angel" Sami
"Angel" Dodge

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#276035 - 03/18/13 11:38 AM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: JakodaCD OA]
Chris Wild Offline
Administrator... and Alpha Bitch of the Wild Bunch

Registered: 01/19/10
Posts: 1061
Loc: Michigan, USA
Likes: 35
I recently joined what's probably the same chicken forum, Diane, and I agree.
I think the worst case of that sort of thing I've ever heard was a pet obedience class client years ago who couldn't understand why their beagle was such a problem with their house rabbit. If you have a house rabbit, why of all of the dogs available did you pick a rabbit hunting breed????!!! Oh yeah, because it was small and cute and thus supposedly more manageable, with absolutely no consideration for the instincts that have been bred into it for a few hundred years!
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#276036 - 03/18/13 11:48 AM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN]
Schnickle Fritz Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 06/23/10
Posts: 3129
Loc: Fairfield, Ca.
Likes: 79
Quote:
I recently joined what's probably the same chicken forum, Diane, and I agree.
I think the worst case of that sort of thing I've ever heard was a pet obedience class client years ago who couldn't understand why their beagle was such a problem with their house rabbit. If you have a house rabbit, why of all of the dogs available did you pick a rabbit hunting breed????!!! Oh yeah, because it was small and cute and thus supposedly more manageable, with absolutely no consideration for the instincts that have been bred into it for a few hundred years!
this kind of thing happens way too often... i met a very young couple like maybe 19 or so. first apt just married wanted to get into the "dog" thing before children. went to the pound... adopted a real cute (and it WAS ONe of the cutest i have ever seen) they were in the pet store with it and had it on a harness and they were letting it blow off steam by dragging them to every dog and human in the store... the reason for them picking this one was it's cuteness... they were told it was a schnauzer cattle dog mix and indeed it looked just that way. they had no idea what those two breeds were actually bredd to do... they though "watching" cattle meant just that not actaull y herding them... and they had no idea that a schnauuzer was a terrier!!

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#276042 - 03/18/13 12:04 PM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Schnickle Fritz]
SunCzarina Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/10
Posts: 2157
Loc: West Bay RI
Likes: 15
It makes me so crazy when people get a shepherd for looks, I can't even talk about it makes me so crazy. Gives me flashbacks to when we used to rescue and foster.
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Otto von Hena-c 5/23/08
Penny the Pocket Panther 8/2/10
Venus of Crooked Creek 1/25/13 Vivacious V!!!


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#276073 - 03/18/13 06:22 PM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: SunCzarina]
JakodaCD OA Offline
Veteran

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 1378
Loc: Old Lyme CT
Likes: 27
Chris backyard chickens? If not , check it out, the most comprehensive chicken forum I've found:)

Jenn, makes me even crazier when I hear, "I got him to protect me":(
_________________________
Diane
Ozzie von Kleinen Hain
Jakoda's Kholee
Tranquillo's Kizzy
Danger Danger von Kleinen Hain aka "Masi"
"Angel" Harmonyhill's Hy Jynx aka "Jynx"
"Angel" Jakoda's Jagged Edge aka "Jag"
"Angel" Sami
"Angel" Dodge

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#276086 - 03/18/13 08:53 PM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: JakodaCD OA]
SunCzarina Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/10
Posts: 2157
Loc: West Bay RI
Likes: 15
Otto steps right up growling when an adult, even a friend, is either yelling at his kids or doing something he thinks is inappropriate. Even people Otto really likes. Me? He'd probably let me get stabbed with a garden rake.
_________________________
-Jenn

Otto von Hena-c 5/23/08
Penny the Pocket Panther 8/2/10
Venus of Crooked Creek 1/25/13 Vivacious V!!!


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#276562 - 03/23/13 10:44 AM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: SunCzarina]
aubie Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/16/10
Posts: 2203
Loc: Alabama
Likes: 49
Chris, I agree with the breed specific traits. I hate when people bring dogs into their homes based on looks, then act shocked when their adorable wiener dog digs up their backyard or kills the family hamster.

Part of being a responsible pet owner is not only knowing your dogs individual limits, but the breeds' limits as well. Example, my sis/BIL's dog, Amos, is a pit they adopted. They know some of Amos' background, but due to his breed and not knowing his whole backstory, my BIL is very selective on where they take him. Amos himself is a giant sweetie/doofus, but he's more worried about other dog owners and their yappy beasts so he just doesn't put Amos in that situation.
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Anna, GSD 9/21/08
Panzer, GSD 9/12/15
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#276563 - 03/23/13 11:10 AM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: aubie]
Wolfstraum Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 116
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA USA
Likes: 24
Newstory here last night:

5 year old in hospital, mauled, mother bitten up as well.

Mother and child visiting friends...have been there before...apparently child has played with the dogs before. 5 loose with child...3 more in home (township law allows only 3 of this breed in one residence - roommates, had 8 between them - puppies maybe as well).

Child squeals, according to mother, and dogs start mauling him...skull wound long and to the bone, face bitten, face, arms and legs.....

Mother and dog's owners shocked, child knew dogs, had played with them often previously....

Unfortunately - this is a common news story - at least a couple of times a month here.

People just do NOT UNDERSTAND that dogs whose breed was specifically chosen for certain characteristics can and may display that characteristic...the Beagle for rabbits, the collie and GSD for herding, and the fighting breeds for fighting....

People can be so so so stupid!!!!!!!!!

Lee

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