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#236454 - 06/15/12 04:10 PM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN]
Zisso Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/25/10
Posts: 2605
Loc: Eastern Oregon
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I think how we raise them has a fair influence but that we raise each dog according to it's breed-with the knowledge that different breeds have different needs. I don't think I would be as firm with a toy breed as I am with my GSD's...I would probably pamper them more. That said I also agree with Patti (got your name right this time wink )in that there are some dogs who are just not mentally wired soundly to begin with.
Bev~mom to:
Zisso-DOB 09/16/07

R.I.P. Kiki, Nadia, Pepe, and all my other loves from years gone by.

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#236455 - 06/15/12 04:10 PM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN]
MaxaLisa Offline

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Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 19487
Loc: Northern CA
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That makes me feel better that it was a pet owner.

Indy's behaviour was significantly altered by her vaccine reactions, and it changed her forever. You also see what idiot owners can do to their dogs. So, I understand the viewpoint!
MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
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#236464 - 06/15/12 04:34 PM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: MaxaLisa]
ozzyandsandi Offline

Registered: 03/16/10
Posts: 1285
Likes: 71
It's such a delicate balance. I mean there is who the dog is scientifically. There is what the breed is supposed to be, there is what the breeder wishes to accomplish in their goals and there is how we raise them. All elements have to be present, the dog needs to be mentally and physically sound, we all know a dog in pain will bite, a dog mentally unstable is a bite looking to happen.

I think JMHO the statement "It is all how you raise them", is very dangerous. It leads people to believe they can take any dog, raise it well, I mean these are likely well-meaning folks, and ignore things like breed characteristics, temperament and lineage.

I guess it's like breeding Jeffrey Dahmer to John Wayne Gacy, will you get a healthy, sane child, maybe, do you want the potential time bomb in your house?
Patti loved by Ozzy (proud to be a Heinz 57) and Dolly (weighs more than most people, St. Bernard)...
Sandi's waiting at the Bridge

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#236474 - 06/15/12 05:18 PM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: ozzyandsandi]
Good_Karma Offline
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Registered: 02/16/10
Posts: 2814
Loc: Belfast, NY
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I was at the library this week and I saw one of the women that works there that I don't often see, so we caught up a bit on our dogs (she has a lab puppy she is working on getting a therapy certificate on), and she asked about Niko and I told her he had come to watch me race and had done very well and met several women and gotten petted by them (this was HUGE) so I said he'd come a long way.

The very next thing she said, "Oh so he wasn't socialized?" mad mad mad

Well, I was definitely offended by that offhand remark, even though I know she probably only ever dealt with little problems with her dog, like digging in the yard or chasing squirrels. HER DOG loves kids, and since mine doesn't, that's all my fault??? No, I cannot accept that.

"It's all in how you raise them"... I 100% disagree. I have to disagree because to accept this as true means that I have somehow seriously messed up my dog, who barks at little kids and little old ladies (and women, and most men, and cats, and bunnies, and...well, you get the picture.)

Through lots of work, private training, lots of work, and lots of work we have gotten him to be on mostly acceptable behavior when in public. Yes, I concede that we made some mistakes with him, tried to do too much too fast, did not take his cues that he was uncomfortable in situations, did not find a way to build up his confidence the way we should have, relied too much on the advice of trainers who did not understand the breed, etc. But I will not accept all the blame and say that Niko is the way he is because I messed up in raising him. mad

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#236475 - 06/15/12 05:20 PM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN]
Good_Karma Offline
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Registered: 02/16/10
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Loc: Belfast, NY
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Originally Posted By: JeanKBBMMMAAN
Then my head popped off. rofl

My head kind of popped off too! laugh

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#236500 - 06/15/12 07:35 PM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Good_Karma]
PositiveDog Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 4921
Loc: Ohio
Likes: 136
Poor clueless pet owner to think that. WDJ has a great article about that subject this month.

Rally good one if you have time to read it. thumbup

With approval of my friends:

SamCat, 03/2011

Seiko, Solo, Sophie, Skye and Buddy - bridge dogs who taught me so much

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#236506 - 06/15/12 07:52 PM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: PositiveDog]
DancingCavy Offline

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 4067
Loc: Syracuse, NY
Likes: 115
Oh if only that were true. Perhaps then Risa would be able to overcome more of her fears. . . (Granted, I didn't 'raise her' until she was 2.5 years old.)

Certainly, with all the work I've done, Risa has become more social and less phobic. But, despite all the work I've done, she is still not very social and still phobic. She is who she is. Part of it is how she was raised (not well-socialized I'd bet) and the other part is how she's wired. Experiences can only go so far to 'change' who she is.
Veteran MF-GrCH Dancing Cavy's Pain in the Butte W-FDM/MF MF-M Vet InS/E R-FE/N PCD BN RAE RL1 (AoE) RNX TKP CA CGC WCX3 Risa
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#236513 - 06/15/12 08:58 PM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: DancingCavy]
Grakira Offline
Old Hand

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 748
Likes: 19
Think you all would like this blog post by Suzanne Clothier smile

If only it was how you raised them...maybe my Vigo wouldn't be a shy, fearful dog!
Vigo von der Gauss (Vigo) CGC, CGC-A
Vendetta vom haus Huro (Fawkes)
Akira z Khaos (Kira) CGC, CGC-A
UCH Qahlua vom haus Huro (Ayla) CGC, CGC-A
Rest in Peace, Amazing Grace 2/10/02 to 2/20/13

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#236526 - 06/15/12 10:36 PM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Grakira]
Rescues Rule Admin

Registered: 01/18/10
Posts: 4618
Likes: 165
Great article. I am loving reading this thread. So many good points! And I think it sets up dogs and people to fail. And gets away from the biology of an animal. Which we have too.

When I was getting inquiries for a foster that needed a fence, people asked will they grow out of it and I was like...what? And they said, with training, won't he be able to not need a fence...and I was like yes, magically, the fact that he will follow his nose INTO A WALL, will stop when he's 2. I think it was Dyllie. Who has a fence. smile
Help People Help Pets!

Check Out the BDBH Howliday Blog

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#236555 - 06/16/12 01:52 AM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: JeanKBBMMMAAN]
Qyn Offline

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 1964
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Likes: 47
This is a very interesting discussion - thanks for raising this, Jean.

Mostly, anyone seeing a litter of pups will notice the different temperaments within a litter even from a young age and, to me, that alone suggests that not all pups will respond exactly the same way to the same training methods. But I think that, as individuals, people do not train or treat each dog exactly the same way, no matter their intentions. As within human families and other relationships, people have favourites and will modify their behaviour according to the responses they get back from a dog during training and other interactions. This, together with the persons own temperament and level of experience, influence the training and relationship with each different dog (many other factors like health, age and emotions may also have impact too). We also learn from each dog we have experience with whether they are our own or someone else's dog and modify our methods as we learn additional training tools.

Unfortunately, there are dog and human mismatches all the time and that is the basis of most problems in my opinion. Of course, there are dogs that need specific types of owners/handlers and training but I think there are few dogs that are unredeemable however the odds of the right owner being found by every dog is sadly not skewed in the dogs favour. I don't think there are any one size fits all but I do think we are very fortunate that most dogs do fit into our families with mostly manageable and often wonderful results - why else would we keep going back and adding these animals to our lives.
Nix (derivative of Phoenix) Black GSD born 6 June 2011 (Gotcha day 9 Dec 2013)

Quynne gsdhalo - Black Female GSD - Sept 29, 2004 - 11 Nov 2013 Deeply missed

If you don't agree with me ... you are just not listening well enough. smile

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