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#274506 - 03/07/13 10:12 AM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Chris Wild]
PaddyD Offline
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How about the terms: sound and unsound as opposed to good and bad.
Unsound dogs can be problematic but that doesn't make them 'bad'.
If a sound dog is trained to do 'bad' things is s/he still 'good'?
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#274508 - 03/07/13 10:20 AM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: shelle]
PaddyD Offline
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Nature versus nurture.
I agree with the idea that nature greatly overpowers nurture, though not completely.
Humans have the benefit of self-evaluation and a greater capacity to overcome their nature than animals(dogs here).
I am one of 11 siblings and some of us were talking about that and (humorously) wondering whether we have all that much free will since we are so guided by our nature to behave in certain ways.
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#274511 - 03/07/13 10:35 AM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: PaddyD]
aubie Offline
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I believe in the in combo of the two.

Like people, dogs are born with certain core personalities and traits. And like people, other parts of their behavior can be influenced by their environment. Like how they might react to a certain stimuli, overall distrust of people and can be trained for a reaction. Whereas other traits are just genetic-overall fearfulness, drive, skills/talents, stubborness.

I think where this saying comes from is a defense in regard to bully breeds or breeds seen as "aggressive." That a dog wouldn't necessarily go out and attack a person unless raised in an environment that would make them more prone to do so. It helps defend the breed, which is good and "mostly" true.
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#274572 - 03/07/13 08:08 PM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Good_Karma]
Deno Offline
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Originally Posted By: Good_Karma
Originally Posted By: Deno


A good dog can be ruined by a not so smart owner.

A bad dog can be helped by a smart owner.


I don't disagree with these statements, however I don't think things are as cut and dried as you put it. A good dog can certainly be stressed out by and learn bad behaviors from a poor handler. But if he has a well adjusted base line of temperament, changing the training and lifestyle can help let his "inner good dog" out. How else can you explain how so many of Michael Vick's bait dogs were rehabilitated and found homes? These were basically really good dogs who had been mistreated, but rebounded and became well socialized and ready for placement after being shown that they could trust and love humans.

And a "bad dog" can most definitely be helped by a wise handler, but only to a point. And in many cases, a fearful dog will always hold onto his fears, but will have been trained not to show reactions. That fear still exists, but not the evidence of it. Does that make him a good dog? I don't think so, because that fear still exists and that dog can never be fully trusted. He will always and forever need management and constant reinforcement of his training.


When I say raise them, that isn't limited to when they were puppys or whatever. The people who rehabilitated vick's dogs made the change, not nature. If left alone, they would have remained messed up.

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#274643 - 03/08/13 10:11 AM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Deno]
Chris Wild Offline
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Originally Posted By: Deno
The people who rehabilitated vick's dogs made the change, not nature. If left alone, they would have remained messed up.


But nature allowed it.
They would not have been able to make those changes if the dogs had not been fundamentally sound genetically. If they had not, if their *nature* had been different, no changes would have been able to be made no matter how hard anyone tried.
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#274749 - 03/09/13 09:37 AM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Chris Wild]
Deno Offline
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Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
Originally Posted By: Deno
The people who rehabilitated vick's dogs made the change, not nature. If left alone, they would have remained messed up.


But nature allowed it.
They would not have been able to make those changes if the dogs had not been fundamentally sound genetically. If they had not, if their *nature* had been different, no changes would have been able to be made no matter how hard anyone tried.



People can shape what nature has made.

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#274751 - 03/09/13 09:57 AM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Deno]
Good_Karma Offline
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But only to a certain extent. You cannot completely remake or transform a temperament. Temperament has a genetic component. You can agree that there are different personality traits from breed to breed, can you not? There are toy and companion breeds that will never have the drive to be working dogs, or have the tolerance to be a therapy dog, or the focus and impulse control to be a guide dog. So how is it therefore so impossible in your mind that fear levels or aggression or confidence might not also be inherent in an individual as well?
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#274780 - 03/09/13 01:15 PM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Good_Karma]
MaxaLisa Offline

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People can shape, but, it's really important that we understand, they are who they are.

I wonder if this discussion is colored by what a person might choose as their training method. I might think (and I might be wrong), that people that use compulsion would be more likely to think that they have the ability to actually change a dog's nature.


Edited by MaxaLisa (03/09/13 01:16 PM)
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#274795 - 03/09/13 05:14 PM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: MaxaLisa]
Good_Karma Offline
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I agree, it is an easy trap to fall into especially since dominance theory appeals to our need to be in control. It is extremely rewarding to our egos to believe that we have superiority over another being.
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#274798 - 03/09/13 05:43 PM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Good_Karma]
Deno Offline
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Any conscientious person should seek to control their dog. Not for egos sake,
but for the saftey of the public and the dog.

Every one including the dog is better off for it.

Deno

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