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#274800 - 03/09/13 05:55 PM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Deno]
MaxaLisa Offline

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Registered: 01/26/10
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There is, however, a difference between control and training.

I prefer to train my dog. In the abence of proper training, you have to control. But even with control, there are so many different ways that can be done. I threw away my dogs' shock and prong collar when he got here, and went with a front clip harness.
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#274801 - 03/09/13 06:01 PM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Good_Karma]
Deno Offline
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Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 257
Loc: Fern Creek Ky
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Originally Posted By: Good_Karma
But only to a certain extent. You cannot completely remake or transform a temperament. Temperament has a genetic component. You can agree that there are different personality traits from breed to breed, can you not? There are toy and companion breeds that will never have the drive to be working dogs, or have the tolerance to be a therapy dog, or the focus and impulse control to be a guide dog. So how is it therefore so impossible in your mind that fear levels or aggression or confidence might not also be inherent in an individual as well?


I agree with what you say about traits from breed to breed. If we were talking about people this would be called profiling.

There is no doubt in my mind that a Pit Bull raised in a loving home with a
"Knowledgeable" owner will be quite different from one raised by a gang member for dog fighting.

We can shape nature.

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#274803 - 03/09/13 06:11 PM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: MaxaLisa]
Deno Offline
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Registered: 02/10/13
Posts: 257
Loc: Fern Creek Ky
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Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
There is, however, a difference between control and training.

I prefer to train my dog. In the abence of proper training, you have to control. But even with control, there are so many different ways that can be done. I threw away my dogs' shock and prong collar when he got here, and went with a front clip harness.



I agree about training your own dog. I would never let someone else train mine.

Proper control can only be obtained with proper training.

We both agree there is more than one way to skin a cat.

There is nothing wrong with using a prong and/or a shock collar if done properly.

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#274805 - 03/09/13 06:44 PM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Deno]
Good_Karma Offline
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Registered: 02/16/10
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You keep saying we can shape nature and yet that is a contradiction in terms. The very point of having two separate classifications (nurture and nature) is because one can be affected by the actions of the environment and one cannot.

I also find your assertation that there are differences in the personalities of people due to race mildly offensive. I would correct your statement to say that culture can have some impact on behavior of individuals, although I fail to see how it can change a personality. I think you can find all manner of personalities existing in all cultures and races.

And of course you must raise a dog to behave in a socially acceptable manner. I do not allow my dog to counter surf. Did I accomplish this by having control of my dog? I don't think so. I made sure that I did not leave anything tempting out for the duration of the time it took me to communicate to him that what was out of his reach when he has all four paws on the ground is also off limits. I did this by constant supervision when he had free access to the house (I suppose you could argue that I was controlling his movements) and letting him know that investigating the counters was not allowed by a verbal marker and redirection to a more appropriate behavior. I really don't see that as control. And just as an aside, neither of my dogs has ever taken anything off my counter. Not even my homemade bread, fresh out of the oven, is danger from my dogs. Allthough I suppose you could argue that has more to do with the palatability of my bread than the skill of my training.

Back to the original point of this thread, and your reference to the difference in behavior between a dog raised poorly and a dog raised kindly. OF COURSE that would make a difference in how the dog turned out. But it is not 100% of the equation. You cannot disregard the core starting materials. No dog comes into this world as a blank slate. All dogs are a product of their ancestry.
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#274810 - 03/09/13 07:26 PM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Good_Karma]
Deno Offline
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You either have a problem with reading comprehension or you are twisting my words on purpose.

Where did I assert that there are differences in the personalities of people
due to race? All I did is agree with you.

The bottom line is nature gives us a dog. We can, depending on our knowledge and/or skill or lack of same, make a good dog or a bad dog.

It's just common sense.

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#274835 - 03/10/13 08:54 AM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Deno]
Good_Karma Offline
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My apologies, sometimes communication through the Internet can jumble meanings. When you mentioned "profiling", I took it to mean the pejorative description of using race to determine the likelihood of criminality and I thought you were being sarcastic.

You and I are not really making any progress in this discussion. Although you have conceded that breeding (the manipulation of genes through mating) can have an effect on personality traits, somehow you remain steadfast in your claim that genes for temperamental traits are meaningless in the face of a skilled trainer. I stand by my earlier statement that those who feel "It's all in how you raise them" have never raised a dog who was born with serious temperament flaws.
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#274838 - 03/10/13 09:34 AM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Good_Karma]
Deno Offline
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Registered: 02/10/13
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Leah, I was being sarcastic. But in the end what you said about different breeds is true.

Like dogs, we are all different.

We are all passionate about our dogs and how we train them. The way I look at it is as long as you are kind & loving in your training it's OK.

I just think it is all in how you treat them. I don't think dogs are born
bad, I think they are made that way.

I also apologize for being a smart aleck.

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#274852 - 03/10/13 10:26 AM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Deno]
Wolfstraum Offline
Member

Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 116
Loc: Pittsburgh, PA USA
Likes: 24
Originally Posted By: Deno


I agree with what you say about traits from breed to breed. If we were talking about people this would be called profiling.

There is no doubt in my mind that a Pit Bull raised in a loving home with a
"Knowledgeable" owner will be quite different from one raised by a gang member for dog fighting.

We can shape nature.


Unfortunately - I will disagree with you - genetics are strong and often overcome or conversely, cannot be overcome, no matter how much training and care.

The city I live in has a large population of Pit Bulls. All too often there is a story on the evening news about a pit bull attack on a child, a neighbor, a dog being walked. These are not always in the 'gang' areas, and are invariably pet dogs who are owned by non gang members....the most recent two that I saw were owned by older women/couples, raised from 8 week old pups as family members. One in a traditionally Italian neighborhood was a 11 month old pit bull who escaped his fenced in yard, and attacked and killed a small dog being walked...the other was 2 adults who escaped repeatedly and attacked a small child...all these dogs were raised in loving, nurturing homes.

Yes - there are many pit bulls who are nice and have never attacked anyone. But the genetics are there, and IMO, they are always going to have a question mark as to their safety. I know people who own them, love them, and bristle with indignation at that, but I would hazard that 95% of the dog attacks in this city are pit bull incidents.

Lee

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#274853 - 03/10/13 10:31 AM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Deno]
Good_Karma Offline
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Registered: 02/16/10
Posts: 2814
Loc: Belfast, NY
Likes: 203
Apology accepted, thank you. What makes this whole discussion very personal for me, and I suspect for other members, is that to state that the way a dog is raised as being the sole predictor of the dog's temperament is very hurtful to those of us who have fearful and aggressive dogs. It suggests that we made serious mistakes in how we raised our dogs. I am certainly willing to own up to not being the perfect owner, but I refuse to take full responsibility for my dog's reactivity and fearfulness.

For example, my dog has an unreasonable fear of women, particularly elderly women. As I have owned Niko since he was 8 weeks old, I can say with near 100% certainty that not once did an elderly woman ever treat him poorly. He is beloved by my mother in law who is in her 50's, my mother who is in her 60's, my aunt who is in her 70's, and my grandmother who is in her 80's. And yet if I encounter a strange woman, most especially an older woman, Niko is certain to have a barking/lunging reaction.

Ever since Niko was a puppy he has lacked confidence. When we picked Niko out from his litter (he came from a small litter of two males), Niko was shy. I didn't interpret his behavior that way at the time due to my ignorance. I thought him hiding under my legs as I crouched down was just a sign that he liked humans and wanted to snuggle me. In reality, he was hiding from the breeder's rambunctious toddler.

And in the days after we brought him home, every time we stepped outside Niko had a barking fit, barking at nothing in particular, and what I have come to believe now is that he was scared and was trying to warn off anything and everything that might be out there. This behavior does not make much sense as we live in a very secluded area and there is quite literally nothing out there.

Now, were there actions I could have taken in the beginning to ameliorate this situation? Absolutely, and if I could rewind the clocks I would change some of the things I did with him. Ironically, in light of the other thread and our conversation about dominance, my first change would have been to throw out the whole Cesar Milan alpha dog thing. I would have been more supportive and encouraging, I would not have "flooded" my dog with forced encounters with other puppies. I would not have used leash corrections. I would have kept outings shorter. I would not have insisted on socialization experiences that were stressful for all of us.

But nothing I did when Niko was growing up warrants the degree of fear, sharpness, and reactivity that he displays as an adult. I am not a monster. I did not abuse my dog.

Can you understand why saying that "It is all in how you raise them" might be hurtful and offensive to someone in my situation?
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Leah

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#274868 - 03/10/13 12:04 PM Re: It's all in how you raise them... [Re: Good_Karma]
Schnickle Fritz Offline
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Registered: 06/23/10
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Loc: Fairfield, Ca.
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great post leah...
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