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#275297 - 03/12/13 11:10 PM Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!!
MaxaLisa Offline

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Registered: 01/26/10
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Loc: Northern CA
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Well, it's time to give a Jazz update.

We have been having problems here. Jazz has been having urinary and digestive and anxiety problems, and they all get better when she is on cipro. After the cipro is stopped, it only lasts a few weeks before she starts feeling really bad again, which is frustrating, because I don't like this antibiotic roller coaster, and it doesn't completely resolve everything when she's on it either.

Blood tests haven't shown anything useful, though the urinalyses (is that the plural of urinalysis?) have shown white blood cells and high specific gravity, never any bacteria, even when cultured.

She had an abdominal ultrasound last month, which showed everything absolutely normal (we were looking for kidney issues, or something congenital). Today we had an appointment with the IM vet (internal medicine). This is the same one that helped with Max, and I really like him. Great intuition, super smart, and always has a good answer to my weird questions, even if the answer is, "we think..., but we don't know..., could be....."

He has a list of things that could be causing problems for Jazz. It's not exactly a short list. It ranges from vaginitis, to complications from the hernias, to a wide gamut of neurological problems, including borderline seizure activity frown and also including hormonal problems (addison's, etc.) He didn't come out and say it, but it was inferred in one of his answers, but I believe that he thinks there may be more than one thing going on.

I'll write more about the details in the following post, but for those that don't want to read all that, the bottom line is that, in two weeks, on the 28th, her vagina will be scoped (under anesthesia), and hopefully they will get all the way into the bladder, and see what is going on. With luck, they will find a cause of symptoms she is having. If there is something anatomical, she will have surgery at that time, which may be a quick easy surgery, or not, depending on what they find. If there is a surgery, then counting her spay, this will be her 4th surgery in the last year frown
_________________________
MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

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#275298 - 03/12/13 11:10 PM Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! [Re: MaxaLisa]
MaxaLisa Offline

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Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 19487
Loc: Northern CA
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Urinary....vaginitis is at the top of the list, just from experience of the pattern with the symptoms and the abx; this is also what the other vet was thinking. This might also explain why the high (sometimes very high) WBCs occur on the free catch samples and not the ones they take directly from the bladder. He also said she might be part cat smile , experiencing cystitis. His intuition is that there is something anatomically wrong that is causing urine to pool, or a nerve or muscle issue that is making it difficult for her to empty her bladder, the latter wouldn't be "fixable" necessarily. The latter case might be related to the hernias or weak muscles not being able to empty the bladder completely. Also, having had the hernias puts her at a higher risk of having something else internal wrong.

Digestive....unless she is on cipro, she seems intolerant to most all foods and has very loose stools. On cipro, I am able to get the diet right. The IM vet thinks that the digestive system is pulling in more water to help move things through, which is creating the high urine specific gravity, and the concentrated urine is definitely an irritant to the bladder. Again, here, he's worried about the abdominal muscles being too weak to help move the food through, or that something else is going on internally. We are hoping that if the vaginal procedure finds something to fix, with the new diet she has that finally just got balanced through the nutritionist Sabine, that that will be enough to address the digestive issues.

She is due for her rabies booster on 4/18. I asked about that and his recommendation. I was very pleased that he was very hesitant to vax her until things are under control and we have her figured out. I did tell him that rabies titers were pending, and he thought that was great.

She has these weird nervous system issues, and sometimes she has weird tongue spasms, where the tongue makes all of these weird contortions. I believe that is why he mentioned the seizure activity, though I really don't think that's going to be an issue. However, I have been staring at this tube of Advantix, whether I should apply it or not...I haven't used anything on her before, but the mosquitos are so bad (who knows what they carry out here), and she's picked up a few fleas in the field and maybe at daycare. I think I will hold off for awhile longer, particularly if she might have surgery in the next couple of weeks.

I should add, the anxiety problems she has when she is off cipro are pretty weird, it doesn't make sense. And eating breakfast makes her tremble too. Without the cipro, she has pure panic attacks in the car. Weird, huh?


Edited by MaxaLisa (03/12/13 11:12 PM)
_________________________
MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

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#275311 - 03/13/13 12:24 AM Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! [Re: MaxaLisa]
3K9Mom Offline
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Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 456
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Wow, what a list.

Sounds like you have a lot to cover.

Here's my one somewhat tangential suggestion: if seizure activity is possible, there are two ways to approach this: run an MRI and rule out leisions and other brain "hardware" problems. Or start anti-seizure meds and see if they help. Many owners opt to just try meds, either because they can't afford an MRI or don't feel that their dog can handle the MRI due to anesthesia risk, temperament (they have to ride over to the MRI facility in a n SUV with other dogs,) etc.

Even when the MRI is negative (yay!) as it was with my guy, you're left with a "what now?" scenario. You can stress the dog to seizure threshold to confirm seizure disorder, but the neurologist isn't a big fan of stressing the dog like that.

So we started him on seizure meds anyhow. We started mine on gabapentine (at my specific request) because it is somewhat widely used for pain, behavior management and other off-label uses. I wanted the pain management properties.

I can recommend my Neuro to you most strongly. He is an attentive sole practitioner with impeccable credentials and the way he interacts with my dog is gentle, compassionate and with utter confidence. My guy just walked off with him like a 8 wk old pup.

So while you're checking off boxes, a second set of eyes may very much help. I don't think it can hurt. Ruling out Neuro causes would be ideal. But if we can't, treating them might provide Jazz pain relief for her other issues as well. It might also help with her anxiety. We didn't realize until after he was on his meds that his small (often undetectable) seizures were making my guy extremely anxious. We don't see that anymore.

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#275312 - 03/13/13 12:25 AM Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! [Re: MaxaLisa]
Tara Offline
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Registered: 02/24/10
Posts: 2161
Loc: Virginia
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Lisa, your post made me think Neospora caninum. It's a parasitic protozoan in dogs similar to Toxoplasma gondii in cats. You can see neuro signs in the hind end and head with Neospora IIRC. Since Toxo responds to treatment with Clindamycin in cats, I think Neospora may in dogs as well, but I'd have to do some more research. This is probably somewhat obscure, but thought I'd mention it in case it triggers an idea for something to help Jazzy.

ETA: I have an exam on Thursday, but after I'll try to do a lit search for you.


Edited by Tara (03/13/13 12:27 AM)
_________________________
Kristin

Tara NW1 ORT-AC CGC - GSD 2008
Suli - DSH 2006

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#275313 - 03/13/13 12:31 AM Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! [Re: 3K9Mom]
3K9Mom Offline
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Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 456
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Oh, fwiw, I used Advantix on Celo a few months ago and he had seizures that night where he had been seizure- free for months. The Neuro said that technically, there is no conclusive evidence that flea meds cause seizures. But his owners sometimes claim such things.

I've used Frontline+ before and since and never had any issues.

Costco sells it. I also have a year's worth in various sizes (of course).. I can give you a month's dose if you want to try it before you buy a bunch. Drop me a note.

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#275315 - 03/13/13 12:54 AM Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! [Re: 3K9Mom]
MaxaLisa Offline

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Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 19487
Loc: Northern CA
Likes: 256
Thanks 3K9, very interesting, if not disturbing a bit!

If there is a surgery, I probably will not be able to afford the MRI. I am intrigued by these "small, undetectable" seizures, which I think my guy was probably referring to as a borderline seizure disorder.

We will do the vaginal scope first, but will keep the neuro on the list - I like the idea of an independent guy, particularly one that comes so highly recommended.

The holistic vet put her on the supplement GABA, I'm interested to see the longer term effects of this.....
_________________________
MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

Top Likes: 0 
#275316 - 03/13/13 12:58 AM Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! [Re: MaxaLisa]
Tara Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/24/10
Posts: 2161
Loc: Virginia
Likes: 85
Oh fail, I just re-read your post and saw it said cipro and I was thinking clindamycin. Sorry!
_________________________
Kristin

Tara NW1 ORT-AC CGC - GSD 2008
Suli - DSH 2006

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#275317 - 03/13/13 01:03 AM Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! [Re: Tara]
MaxaLisa Offline

Global Moderator

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 19487
Loc: Northern CA
Likes: 256
Tara, didn't see your posts! We have had a few cases of Neo on the tick list, but interesting. She had weird symptoms when I first got her, ran a tick panel which was negative, so still may not be that out of bounds, will keep it on the list.

Lori, glad I mentioned the Advantix, I will hold off for sure. Frontline affected Indy, so I think I will just keep using the spray I've been using, and I have a shampoo that seems to work well, so will give her a bath this weekend. Should help for the next month.
_________________________
MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

Top Likes: 0 
#275318 - 03/13/13 01:04 AM Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! [Re: MaxaLisa]
MaxaLisa Offline

Global Moderator

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 19487
Loc: Northern CA
Likes: 256
Lori, do Celo's seizures look like the seizures you usually see described, or are they more subtle?
_________________________
MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

Top Likes: 0 
#275322 - 03/13/13 02:13 AM Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! [Re: MaxaLisa]
bianca Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 05/14/10
Posts: 8875
Loc: Queensland. Australia
Likes: 149
Oh Lisa, that is scary with so many possibilities hugging I am hoping that the procedure on the 28th sheds some much needed light hugging
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Molly Moo (aka The Piranha, 4 legged mouth) GSD (31/10/09)
Cooper GSD (The Gremlin) 19/10/11
Texas - Tabby cat (Feb 1996-2013) Run free sweet Teppie
Paris - Tabby cat (Feb 1996-2013) Run free my beautiful girl.

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