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#8781 - 02/24/10 11:52 AM Before and After of feeding raw *****
SouthernThistle Offline
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Maybe we can resurrect this thread?

Here are some Before and After pictures of Grimm and Gidget. I was 100% sold on feeding raw after seeing Patti's Grimm's before and after pictures and reading about his changes.

Grimm shedded out some of his dry hair, and it filled back on soft and shiny. He also filled out more, and his focus is spot on.

Gidget lost excess fat, toned up and filled out muscle-wise. Her coat is even more shiny, and her focus is GREAT! smile

The below changes have occurred in the past two months to three months.

BEFORE:



AFTER:



BEFORE:



AFTER:

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#8796 - 02/24/10 12:10 PM Re: Before and After of feeding raw [Re: SouthernThistle]
Bradyddr Offline
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they look great
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#8884 - 02/24/10 03:15 PM Re: Before and After of feeding raw [Re: Bradyddr]
Buoyant Dog Offline
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Cool! I love seeing these pics.
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#8987 - 02/24/10 06:24 PM Re: Before and After of feeding raw [Re: Buoyant Dog]
Lauri & the Gang Offline
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This was Sadie. Adopted her several years ago. She was dumped in a night box at a rural shelter then transported to a Chicago rescue.

Her before and after pictures - note the time between the pictures:





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#9146 - 02/24/10 09:01 PM Re: Before and After of feeding raw [Re: Lauri & the Gang]
marko Offline
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Wow, these are great before and after pics. dramatic difference.

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#9297 - 02/24/10 11:11 PM Re: Before and After of feeding raw [Re: ]
Braverhund Offline
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Lauri, could you possibly please put the Grimm portion of your old thread here? gsdbeggin smile
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#9302 - 02/24/10 11:21 PM Re: Before and After of feeding raw [Re: Braverhund]
DancingCavy Offline



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Wow what a change! Ris' change was not so dramatic.

Underweight after coming home from the shelter:

Thin coat:


And Risa nowadays:
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#9832 - 02/25/10 03:13 PM Re: Before and After of feeding raw [Re: DancingCavy]
Buoyant Dog Offline
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Risa looks a lot different!
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#10072 - 02/25/10 07:57 PM Re: Before and After of feeding raw [Re: Buoyant Dog]
GSDTrain Offline
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what a big difference
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#14294 - 03/04/10 08:17 PM Re: Before and After of feeding raw [Re: GSDTrain]
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I have some pics of Kessy - there was a visible change although the most dramatic was of Madina, my parents' GSD. I will try to get some updated pics of her soon...the difference is amazing.

But here is Kessy, we had just started feeding raw here.


Taken in the last few weeks, after maybe 8 months on raw. Her coat is super shiny, soft, and way darker sable than she's ever been, and I think her muscle tone is better.
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#14297 - 03/04/10 08:22 PM Re: Before and After of feeding raw [Re: wonderdog]
Jane Jean Offline
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I don't have before/after pics, but I know from seeing and feeling the coats of other GSD's, a major difference!
My dogs hardly shed and they are silky soft.
I believe they are more toned too, but that is more to do with activity levels when I compare the other non rawfed GSD's.
Teeth are much whiter/shinier and they have no odor, bad breath or otherwise!
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#18849 - 03/13/10 11:27 AM Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: SouthernThistle]
Lauri & the Gang Offline
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(Posting for Patti)

Grimm stopped developing at age 8 - 10 months. He stayed "stuck" physically and emotionally at that age-- for an entire YEAR. Something, I knew, was very wrong.

He was on Orijen 6 Fresh Fish, a premium grain-free kibble. Yet, he had very sparse, short, pale, poor coat, a thin weak frame, little muscle at all, off and on chronic diarrhea (pancreas, stool samples, bloodwork all normal)-- and at 18 months, he still looked like an 8 - 10 month old... he looked like Bambi.









I knew that somehow, he was not absorbing nutrients. His vet discussed malabsorption syndomes, and felt this was not the issue, with such good bloodwork results. I'd been hashing around starting a raw diet, after much research-- and the vet urged me to try that.

I started feeding Grimm raw meals-- with much support from everyone here. \:\)

I saw results almost immediately. Grimm suddenly began acting calmer.. more settled, less frenzied. He could concentrate more when we played a training game.

But the shockers were physical. His coat fell out, nearly all of it. In it's place was a thick, soft, glossy pelt of deeply pigmented real GSD fur... instead of the sparse, prickly, brittle, pale hairs he always had.

He developed thick heavy slabs of muscles. His flat butt became rounded and firm, his forearms muscled, his shoulders fuller, his chest much less pinched, under a thick coating of firm muscle.

Tartar disappeared from his teeth.

His head got wider suddenly.. and wider.

All these changes happened in a short time after beginning the raw. Here are pics of Grimm after just 3 months on raw.

(And yes-- this is the same dog!)










If his body was not getting enough nutrients on premium grain-free kibble for all those months to develop properly.. what was happening with his brain? Grimm has always acted many months younger than he is. I am eager to see if his maturity level developes along with his body now.

Thanks for looking. Amazing what a raw diet can mean for a dog needing those nutrients! What do you think?

From this..



..to this, in just under 3 months?

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#18867 - 03/13/10 12:15 PM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: Lauri & the Gang]
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Thank you so VERY much for posting this, Lauri! The positive changes on a raw diet were truly dramatic and incredible. I have you to thank for your guidance! Without you, I would not have begun raw with Grimm. I had no idea how easy and inexpensive it is! And the results are AMAZING! party Thank you Lauri for your kindhearted mentorship, hugging and for posting this for others to see!
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#26546 - 03/31/10 05:34 PM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: Braverhund]
SouthernThistle Offline
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And, in turn, without Patti.....we would still be reading about raw instead of feeding raw! I love the looks we get if have to go to the grocery store on the fly to get meat and tell the cashier it's for our dogs laugh
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#39120 - 05/06/10 04:40 AM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: SouthernThistle]
mjbgsd Offline
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Holy crap Patti that is amazing!! He looks great!
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#98772 - 10/27/10 09:55 PM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: mjbgsd]
Kirchnel Offline
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I just got our Gsd Odessa in august at 13 months. She had been fed kibble but we immediaately tranitioned her over to raw. She was flown to us so we had a few weeks of decreased appetite. When we got her she had just finished her first heat and had blown her coat. Then we had her spayed and finally she seemed settled in and happy. During this period her coat seemed to improve with very little shedding. We live in the northeast and in September shedding began BUT also change in texture of coat along with massive shedding and dryness. We supplement salmon oil but looking at her coat now wondering about whether the befits of raw are? Her weight and muscle tone good anyone have any ideas? Comments

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#98787 - 10/27/10 10:17 PM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: Kirchnel]
Jane Jean Offline
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What are you feeding her, and how much are you supplementing? If the meals aren't balanced then feeding raw can be detrimental to the health and coat. She did just go thru a stress, betweeen the home transition, heat cycle, and spay...thats a big deal in a short time.
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#98796 - 10/27/10 10:32 PM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: Jane Jean]
GrandJan Offline
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Do you have any pictures to show us? What is her weight and what (and how much) are you feeding her? What supplements are you giving her? As Jane said, she has been through a lot lately, and this surely will have some short-term effect on her overall appearance.
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#98806 - 10/27/10 10:57 PM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: GrandJan]
Kirchnel Offline
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Glad I found this forum! I know she has gone thru a lot and this is our first time when we got a dog from far away and an older puppy.
We are feeding frozen raw beef, lamb chicken and turkey. It is mixed with bone and some vegetables. We are supplementing with salmon oil and I just (today) started adding vit E to make sure she is absorbing. She is about 65 lbs and on the taller side of standard. Just making it the breeder who raised her said she was about 67 prior to heat. At time of spay she was 60. She has since put her weight back.
I am sending this from my iPad which I don't have pictures on. When I get to my computer I can post if I can figure out how. But not recent. They are of her in full coat when she was with breeder. I can try and get some in the next day or so if it stops raining. We are feeding 2 lbs a day.

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#98818 - 10/27/10 11:15 PM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: Kirchnel]
GrandJan Offline
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If you could give us the ratio of meat to bones, that would be helpful too. Glad to hear you added the Vit. E. What amounts of fish oil and E are you giving her?
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#98820 - 10/27/10 11:28 PM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: GrandJan]
Braverhund Offline
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Organ meats (in extremely *tiny* amounts) in the mix, too? A raw diet, when correctly balanced, is amazing. smile
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#98822 - 10/27/10 11:44 PM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: Braverhund]
Kirchnel Offline
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I just know that it is80% meat, organ meat and bone with 20% vegetable.

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#98823 - 10/27/10 11:45 PM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: Kirchnel]
Kirchnel Offline
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I was able to find a not too good picture but can't find out where to turn enable on to enable HTML? Does anyone know.

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#98828 - 10/27/10 11:58 PM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: Kirchnel]
GrandJan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kirchnel
I just know that it is80% meat, organ meat and bone with 20% vegetable.

Hmmm, is it pre-packaged? See if you can find anything specific regarding the contents. 20% vegetables shouldn't count. Vegetables are just an added extra - not part of a weighted diet of meat, bones, and organ meat. Unless the 80% is the proper ratio and the vegetables are just thrown in. If that's the case, you're probably paying too much for this food.
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#98865 - 10/28/10 01:18 AM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: GrandJan]
Kirchnel Offline
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The first two pictures are before her heat, before I got her and in the Spring. The last, poor quality (sorry done with phone) photo was taken maybe one week ago.
Thanks for comments
p.s. 80% of the food is the meat, organ and bone mixture. It just says that and 20% vegtables.
There is no other breakdown.
I am giving about 6 pumps of salmon oil (directions were one pump per 10 lbs) and the vit E was 400 IU @ 1/4 tsp and I am giving 1/2 tsp.
Appreciate comments and advice.

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#98952 - 10/28/10 10:42 AM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: Kirchnel]
GrandJan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kirchnel
80% of the food is the meat, organ and bone mixture. It just says that and 20% vegtables.
There is no other breakdown.
I am giving about 6 pumps of salmon oil (directions were one pump per 10 lbs) and the vit E was 400 IU @ 1/4 tsp and I am giving 1/2 tsp.
Appreciate comments and advice.


Good on the salmon oil, but I would stay at the 1/4 tsp. of E if it equals 400 iu. That's plenty for her.

Unfortunately, we don't have much to work with in regard to her food. I don't like that you have no idea what the ratio is in this package. What do you pay for it? Who makes it? Can you possibly do your own raw food shopping, as in buying everything individually? There we can help you a lot.

She sure is a pretty girl!!
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#100339 - 11/01/10 03:21 PM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: GrandJan]
Kirchnel Offline
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Jan
I finally got the info. Her food is beef, chicken, turkey sometimes lamb or rabbit (re rotate). It is 80 % meet, 10% bone and 10% organ of whatever animal i.e. chicken has chicken organs and bones. I took the step into raw and don't see with my schedule buying everything individually. I have cut the vitamin e to 1/4 tsp. and continue to give salmon oil. Any ideas?

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#100348 - 11/01/10 03:58 PM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: Kirchnel]
GrandJan Offline
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That's too much meat vs. bone, IMO. You should be 60% RMBs/35% MM/5% OM, or at least 50/45/5. How are her poops?
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#100354 - 11/01/10 04:06 PM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: GrandJan]
GrandJan Offline
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Remember, the vegetables should not factor into the amount of food she gets.

If you do 2 lbs./day at 60/35/5, you would be feeding:

19 oz. RMBs
11 oz. MM
2 oz. OM

If you do 2 lbs./day at 50/45/5, you would be feeding:

16 oz. RMBs
14 oz. MM
2 oz. OM

The vegetables can be added in on top of this food, not calculated in the mix.
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#100359 - 11/01/10 05:00 PM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: GrandJan]
Kirchnel Offline
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Her poops are good. From the get-go just about as I did a change from her breeder's kibble to raw meat when she came to us. Her poops are small in size and firm and turn white in a few days. No smell. The vegtables are not included in the percentages. That is on top of the calculation. I think I am giving 1.6 of OM, 1.6 of bone and 12.8 of muscle meat. Perhaps I am doing it wrong though. I just know it is 80% meat, 10% bone, 10% organ meat per pound. Sorry for my ignorance. Initially, like I said she looked really good and some people have said it is the season now with the shedding of the summer coat etc. But it was a change. I just had her groomed and she looked much better and much hair came off despite my daily brushing according to the groomer.

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#100368 - 11/01/10 05:21 PM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: Kirchnel]
GrandJan Offline
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Is this pre-packaged? Who makes it? I don't understand who determined the ratio...

You are certainly not ignorant nono - you are leaps and bounds ahead by asking questions. smile
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#100473 - 11/01/10 09:59 PM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: GrandJan]
Woodreb Offline
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Originally Posted By: GrandJan
That's too much meat vs. bone, IMO. You should be 60% RMBs/35% MM/5% OM, or at least 50/45/5. How are her poops?


While I'm not a raw feeder myself, I've seen this discussion of the % bone in the pre-packaged, ground raw (like Primal) on the other board. When you, as a DIY raw feeder, talk about 50% RMB, most of the time you are talking about something that is not 100% bone. A chicken leg quarter makes a good RMB. Lauri brought this up - that leg quarter is really only about 25% bone, you call it a RMB because it is meat and bone. When you take in to account the meat in the RMB, the MM and OM, the actual amount of just bone in the diet is really around 12%, when feeding 50/45/5 RMB/MM/OM. So the amount of bone (as just bone)in the pre-packaged ground raw diet is about right. Granted it might not be exactly optimal for this particular dog, but it's not too far off.
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#100509 - 11/02/10 12:08 AM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: Woodreb]
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Yes it is prepackaged in the ratios above.

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#100624 - 11/02/10 02:37 PM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: Woodreb]
GrandJan Offline
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Originally Posted By: Woodreb
When you, as a DIY raw feeder, talk about 50% RMB, most of the time you are talking about something that is not 100% bone. A chicken leg quarter makes a good RMB. Lauri brought this up - that leg quarter is really only about 25% bone, you call it a RMB because it is meat and bone.


Actually I don't call a leg quarter an RMB. It has way too much meat on it to be an RMB. It is basically all inclusive, IMO. The same for a whole chicken breast. Also, quarters are not my choice, but many dogs do very well on them. My dogs get them occasionally, but then they are their entire meal (with perhaps a smidgen of OM added).

My RMBs are necks, backs and wings - almost entirely bones, and I must then add in the 35% MM and 5% OM.

If premade/premeasured is balanced another way, then I apologize for any of my information because I'm not really up to date on this type of raw feeding. smile
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#100634 - 11/02/10 04:08 PM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: GrandJan]
Woodreb Offline
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Not trying to be difficult - just trying to understand. I understand that a leg quarter has a considerable amount of meat on it, but if the leg quarter is a combination of meat and bone isn't it by definition a RMB because it does have bone in it that you are feeding? A MM has no bone at all - like beef heart.

Here's the example that Lauri & the Gang gave:

"Here's where the math gets tricky.

In an ideal raw diet (as per ME ), you would feed 45-50% RMB. Raw MEATY Bones. Like ... let's say, a leg quarter.

In that leg quarter the ACTUAL bone content should ideally be around 25% bone.

So, let's do MORE math using the example I made above:


Quote:
Quote:50% RMBs (or a premade with bone): 18 ounces
45% (approximately) Muscle meat (or a premade WITHOUT bone): 16.5 ounces
5% (approx) Organ meat: 1.5 ounce

So, if 25% of the 18 ounces is ACTUAL bone, that is 4.5 ounces.

The total amount fed per day is 36 ounces.

4.5 ounces is 12.5% of 36 ounces.

So, you are feeding a diet with 12.5% ACTUAL bone content.

A premade with 8% bone content isn't off by that much."

from http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/b-r-f-raw-feeding/126386-feeding-premade-raw-weight-2.html

I think a lot of confusion comes from the fact that DIY raw feeders talk about the RMB percentage, but ignore the fact that whatever that item is, it isn't 100% bone in most cases. (And the people like me that try to work out what that means mathematically get confused about how much actual bone is being fed.) The pre-packaged stuff has broken it down as meat/bone rather than MM/RMB. You generally get to the same place in terms of the amount of actual bone in the diet, but the terms used are different.

And I know, because I've looked, that not all pre-made even gives you the percentages. I think the only one I found that was that specific was Primal.


Edited by Woodreb (11/02/10 04:11 PM)
Edit Reason: added a thought
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RIP Aodhán, Rica, Max, Kelly - gone but never forgotten - forever in my heart

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#100635 - 11/02/10 04:13 PM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: Woodreb]
LifeAsMe Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 3032
Likes: 32
My understanding is the 80%/10%/10% is basically the same thing as 50%/45%/5%. It's really how you consider the bone. If the meal consists of chicken quarter, MM and OM, then the RMB would be about 75%, 20% MM and 5% OM taking into consideration that the chicken quarter has more meat on it then a poultry neck or back.

We're really all talking the same numbers, just using a different method of calculating it.

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#100638 - 11/02/10 04:27 PM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: LifeAsMe]
GrandJan Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1972
Loc: NE PA
Likes: 71
Originally Posted By: Woodreb
I understand that a leg quarter has a considerable amount of meat on it, but if the leg quarter is a combination of meat and bone isn't it by definition a RMB because it does have bone in it that you are feeding? A MM has no bone at all - like beef heart.

You are probably technically right, but for my own thinking, it has too much meat on it to be just an RMB. I feed it as an RMB and MM. Remember, this is just my own way of doing things as even after 5+ years, I still weigh each meal! My head computes bones as bones (little to no meat) and meat as meat. silly

Originally Posted By: LifeAsMe
We're really all talking the same numbers, just using a different method of calculating it.

Yep, I think I'm getting it now, but… boy, I sure do like my easy way! laugh
_________________________
Jan - Mom to:

Beau & Chance - German/Anatolian Shepherds
Bailey - Labrador Granddog

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#100646 - 11/02/10 04:55 PM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: GrandJan]
Woodreb Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/18/10
Posts: 5375
Loc: New Milford, CT
Likes: 135
Belive me, I think it is easier your way - it makes more sense to me than calling something that's mostly meat a bone (especially a chicken breast, which is even less bone than the leg quarter). laugh
_________________________
Johanna

Caleb (aka Caleb-Moose)
Ciara(aka Ciara Belle, Black Devil)

RIP Aodhán, Rica, Max, Kelly - gone but never forgotten - forever in my heart

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#130199 - 02/02/11 11:58 PM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: GrandJan]
mjbgsd Offline
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 02/21/10
Posts: 2367
Likes: 13
Akbar before raw, under a year



Akbar after; on raw for 7 months, 18 months old


_________________________
Akbar RN CGC 8
Isa BH CD RAE CGC TDI 12

Cody RIP 2003-2012

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#130221 - 02/03/11 12:20 AM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: mjbgsd]
Braverhund Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/10/10
Posts: 5398
Loc: Massachusetts
Likes: 154
thumbup thumbup thumbup goodjob cheers Akbar looks phenomenal! I wish that we had an applause smiley. You have done a remarkable job, Missy! It takes dedication to feed your dog raw. Way to go! Akbar shines with radiant good health! wub
_________________________
Patti
Frauchen von:

Grimm van den Heuvel, "Donnerpratzen"
Smokey The TeddyLion, DLH purrbuddy

Dir gehört mein Herz

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#147644 - 04/09/11 12:11 AM Re: Grimm - Before and After raw diet change [Re: Braverhund]
GSDTrain Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 6713
Loc: NY
Likes: 13
Akbar looks great!
Now that Mason is on RAW, I can't wait to see the changes!
_________________________
~Ashley~

Ivy's VV Marie NTD CGC

Mason Von Holley BH ETD ATD ITD NTD CL1R NJN TT TDI HIT CGC (HOT) OFA (H/E/C/L) CERF

UKC CH SG Falcon PacHaus BH AD CGCA TDI

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#176190 - 08/28/11 01:29 AM Re: Mason - Before and After raw diet change [Re: GSDTrain]
GSDTrain Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 6713
Loc: NY
Likes: 13
So, I have been waiting to post here and I finally feel that I can! *Patti, I hope you see this!*
Mason has been on raw for 5 months now and is doing better than I ever could have imagined!

Before raw- Mason was extremly itchy, his coat was thin & brittle. He shed excessively, he had bald spots on his legs and even had hair loss on his ears.

After raw- Mason's itching is almost non-existent now, his coat filled in and is so soft and full, he doesn't smell, his skin is in great condition. He has better pigment than before (he is not as washed out!) and the list goes on! (Please keep in mind, Mason suffers from allergies! Most people don't believe me when I tell them smile You could tell before, but not now! ) He has filled out too!



Yes, that is the same dog! wub smile
_________________________
~Ashley~

Ivy's VV Marie NTD CGC

Mason Von Holley BH ETD ATD ITD NTD CL1R NJN TT TDI HIT CGC (HOT) OFA (H/E/C/L) CERF

UKC CH SG Falcon PacHaus BH AD CGCA TDI

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#176218 - 08/28/11 08:50 AM Re: Mason - Before and After raw diet change [Re: GSDTrain]
Leslie&Chico Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 02/21/10
Posts: 302
Loc: north of Dayton, OH
Likes: 7
WOW!! What an incredible transformation. He looks sooooooo much more handsome now wub
_________________________
Leslie
Chico 10/13/2007
Cats
Zeke
Gus
C.C.
Tobi
GBNF
Skeezix
Dixie

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#176857 - 08/30/11 11:06 PM Re: Mason - Before and After raw diet change [Re: Leslie&Chico]
MaxaLisa Offline

Global Moderator

Registered: 01/26/10
Posts: 19428
Loc: Northern CA
Likes: 254
Ashley, he looks GREAT!!!!

The diet change (and the antibiotics), did a great job thumbup

I hear that Patti is without power and internet, so you'll have to be sure to point this out to her when she gets back.

Happy he is doing so well!
_________________________
MaxaL (aka LisaT)

Jazmine, mini-mix, 10/18/2011
Max-n-Indy
Max, 5/2001-2/2012, RIP my partner, my Regal Boy
Indy, 5/1997-10/2010, RIP my friend, my teacher

Health Index
K9 TBD info and Tick List Links
http://www.rabieschallengefund.org/

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#176906 - 08/31/11 02:45 AM Re: Mason - Before and After raw diet change [Re: MaxaLisa]
GSDTrain Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 6713
Loc: NY
Likes: 13
Thank you Leslie and Lisa!
_________________________
~Ashley~

Ivy's VV Marie NTD CGC

Mason Von Holley BH ETD ATD ITD NTD CL1R NJN TT TDI HIT CGC (HOT) OFA (H/E/C/L) CERF

UKC CH SG Falcon PacHaus BH AD CGCA TDI

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#176910 - 08/31/11 03:13 AM Re: Mason - Before and After raw diet change [Re: GSDTrain]
BowWowMeow Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Registered: 02/11/10
Posts: 4747
Loc: Buffalo
Likes: 127
Wow! So glad you went raw with him. That is just amazing. He looks SO great now!
_________________________
Ruth

Rafi, the german malaroo, age 9.5ish
http://www.dogster.com/dogs/693238

Varda & Gio (the crazy cattens)
...............
Warming my heart:
Queen Cleopatra
Chama
Kai
Basu
Massie

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