Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!!

Posted by: MaxaLisa

Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/12/13 11:10 PM

Well, it's time to give a Jazz update.

We have been having problems here. Jazz has been having urinary and digestive and anxiety problems, and they all get better when she is on cipro. After the cipro is stopped, it only lasts a few weeks before she starts feeling really bad again, which is frustrating, because I don't like this antibiotic roller coaster, and it doesn't completely resolve everything when she's on it either.

Blood tests haven't shown anything useful, though the urinalyses (is that the plural of urinalysis?) have shown white blood cells and high specific gravity, never any bacteria, even when cultured.

She had an abdominal ultrasound last month, which showed everything absolutely normal (we were looking for kidney issues, or something congenital). Today we had an appointment with the IM vet (internal medicine). This is the same one that helped with Max, and I really like him. Great intuition, super smart, and always has a good answer to my weird questions, even if the answer is, "we think..., but we don't know..., could be....."

He has a list of things that could be causing problems for Jazz. It's not exactly a short list. It ranges from vaginitis, to complications from the hernias, to a wide gamut of neurological problems, including borderline seizure activity frown and also including hormonal problems (addison's, etc.) He didn't come out and say it, but it was inferred in one of his answers, but I believe that he thinks there may be more than one thing going on.

I'll write more about the details in the following post, but for those that don't want to read all that, the bottom line is that, in two weeks, on the 28th, her vagina will be scoped (under anesthesia), and hopefully they will get all the way into the bladder, and see what is going on. With luck, they will find a cause of symptoms she is having. If there is something anatomical, she will have surgery at that time, which may be a quick easy surgery, or not, depending on what they find. If there is a surgery, then counting her spay, this will be her 4th surgery in the last year frown
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/12/13 11:10 PM


Urinary....vaginitis is at the top of the list, just from experience of the pattern with the symptoms and the abx; this is also what the other vet was thinking. This might also explain why the high (sometimes very high) WBCs occur on the free catch samples and not the ones they take directly from the bladder. He also said she might be part cat smile , experiencing cystitis. His intuition is that there is something anatomically wrong that is causing urine to pool, or a nerve or muscle issue that is making it difficult for her to empty her bladder, the latter wouldn't be "fixable" necessarily. The latter case might be related to the hernias or weak muscles not being able to empty the bladder completely. Also, having had the hernias puts her at a higher risk of having something else internal wrong.

Digestive....unless she is on cipro, she seems intolerant to most all foods and has very loose stools. On cipro, I am able to get the diet right. The IM vet thinks that the digestive system is pulling in more water to help move things through, which is creating the high urine specific gravity, and the concentrated urine is definitely an irritant to the bladder. Again, here, he's worried about the abdominal muscles being too weak to help move the food through, or that something else is going on internally. We are hoping that if the vaginal procedure finds something to fix, with the new diet she has that finally just got balanced through the nutritionist Sabine, that that will be enough to address the digestive issues.

She is due for her rabies booster on 4/18. I asked about that and his recommendation. I was very pleased that he was very hesitant to vax her until things are under control and we have her figured out. I did tell him that rabies titers were pending, and he thought that was great.

She has these weird nervous system issues, and sometimes she has weird tongue spasms, where the tongue makes all of these weird contortions. I believe that is why he mentioned the seizure activity, though I really don't think that's going to be an issue. However, I have been staring at this tube of Advantix, whether I should apply it or not...I haven't used anything on her before, but the mosquitos are so bad (who knows what they carry out here), and she's picked up a few fleas in the field and maybe at daycare. I think I will hold off for awhile longer, particularly if she might have surgery in the next couple of weeks.

I should add, the anxiety problems she has when she is off cipro are pretty weird, it doesn't make sense. And eating breakfast makes her tremble too. Without the cipro, she has pure panic attacks in the car. Weird, huh?
Posted by: 3K9Mom

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/13/13 12:24 AM

Wow, what a list.

Sounds like you have a lot to cover.

Here's my one somewhat tangential suggestion: if seizure activity is possible, there are two ways to approach this: run an MRI and rule out leisions and other brain "hardware" problems. Or start anti-seizure meds and see if they help. Many owners opt to just try meds, either because they can't afford an MRI or don't feel that their dog can handle the MRI due to anesthesia risk, temperament (they have to ride over to the MRI facility in a n SUV with other dogs,) etc.

Even when the MRI is negative (yay!) as it was with my guy, you're left with a "what now?" scenario. You can stress the dog to seizure threshold to confirm seizure disorder, but the neurologist isn't a big fan of stressing the dog like that.

So we started him on seizure meds anyhow. We started mine on gabapentine (at my specific request) because it is somewhat widely used for pain, behavior management and other off-label uses. I wanted the pain management properties.

I can recommend my Neuro to you most strongly. He is an attentive sole practitioner with impeccable credentials and the way he interacts with my dog is gentle, compassionate and with utter confidence. My guy just walked off with him like a 8 wk old pup.

So while you're checking off boxes, a second set of eyes may very much help. I don't think it can hurt. Ruling out Neuro causes would be ideal. But if we can't, treating them might provide Jazz pain relief for her other issues as well. It might also help with her anxiety. We didn't realize until after he was on his meds that his small (often undetectable) seizures were making my guy extremely anxious. We don't see that anymore.
Posted by: Tara

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/13/13 12:25 AM

Lisa, your post made me think Neospora caninum. It's a parasitic protozoan in dogs similar to Toxoplasma gondii in cats. You can see neuro signs in the hind end and head with Neospora IIRC. Since Toxo responds to treatment with Clindamycin in cats, I think Neospora may in dogs as well, but I'd have to do some more research. This is probably somewhat obscure, but thought I'd mention it in case it triggers an idea for something to help Jazzy.

ETA: I have an exam on Thursday, but after I'll try to do a lit search for you.
Posted by: 3K9Mom

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/13/13 12:31 AM

Oh, fwiw, I used Advantix on Celo a few months ago and he had seizures that night where he had been seizure- free for months. The Neuro said that technically, there is no conclusive evidence that flea meds cause seizures. But his owners sometimes claim such things.

I've used Frontline+ before and since and never had any issues.

Costco sells it. I also have a year's worth in various sizes (of course).. I can give you a month's dose if you want to try it before you buy a bunch. Drop me a note.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/13/13 12:54 AM

Thanks 3K9, very interesting, if not disturbing a bit!

If there is a surgery, I probably will not be able to afford the MRI. I am intrigued by these "small, undetectable" seizures, which I think my guy was probably referring to as a borderline seizure disorder.

We will do the vaginal scope first, but will keep the neuro on the list - I like the idea of an independent guy, particularly one that comes so highly recommended.

The holistic vet put her on the supplement GABA, I'm interested to see the longer term effects of this.....
Posted by: Tara

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/13/13 12:58 AM

Oh fail, I just re-read your post and saw it said cipro and I was thinking clindamycin. Sorry!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/13/13 01:03 AM

Tara, didn't see your posts! We have had a few cases of Neo on the tick list, but interesting. She had weird symptoms when I first got her, ran a tick panel which was negative, so still may not be that out of bounds, will keep it on the list.

Lori, glad I mentioned the Advantix, I will hold off for sure. Frontline affected Indy, so I think I will just keep using the spray I've been using, and I have a shampoo that seems to work well, so will give her a bath this weekend. Should help for the next month.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/13/13 01:04 AM

Lori, do Celo's seizures look like the seizures you usually see described, or are they more subtle?
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/13/13 02:13 AM

Oh Lisa, that is scary with so many possibilities hugging I am hoping that the procedure on the 28th sheds some much needed light hugging
Posted by: 3K9Mom

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/13/13 04:53 AM

I saw fly biting. But what vet said is that often there are virtually undetectable signs of seizure, like flickering eyes, eyerolls, staring off into space, that sort of thing.

Once he said that, I recalled that at the surgeon's office, the techs would mention that sometimes, Celo "would get that look," and he would be kind of weird. They knew to stand by quietly for a minute or two and then he was fine; totally compliant, in fact.

I had always assumed he was being a little reactive and just didn't like a relative stranger startling him as they approachied his kennel (especially if he had been snoozing) too abruptly. I know he liked it there and adored the staff. He would start bellowing with excitement in the car as soon as I made the turn to the hospital, about 2 miles away. And he would happily trot off with them for treatment. So reactivity didn't completely make sense. But it's all I had to work with.

As soon as the neurologist said "staring off into space" (and I had already realized that he usually came out of his fly biting episodes anxious), it was like someone hit me over the head with a 2x4.

As we were working out the perfect dose if his meds, that's exactly what I saw in the early evenings (his seizure threshold drops tremendously when he's tired): staring off for a few seconds, followed by weird anxiety. Later in the evening, it's subtle fly biting. At night, fly biting that actually wakes him up. The frequency, intensity and duration were increasing at a frightening rate. (It seems like it came out of nowhere, but I wonder how long he was having smaller partial seizures and I was oblivious to what was going on.) I had another neurologist I totally trust and I planned to use, with an appointment scheduled. But my vet said I couldn't even wait to drive up there. I was given this referral. He fit me in asap, and I have been extremely happy with his care.

Between Celo's medicine and a good nap every day, we haven't seen any of that since about December.


And I watch him like a hawk, which you might find surprising. Or not. laugh
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/13/13 06:47 AM

I was so hoping Jazzy's problems would be lessening as she grew.

I hope your vet has more concrete news after she is scoped. frown At least then you will know what you are dealing with and can make a good plan for her.

hugging
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/13/13 06:52 AM

Lisa, I have no advice, simply good thoughts being sent for your darling sesame seed spunkette. wub May her health issues be something you can get a definitive diagnosis on, and a treatment plan that brings relief to you both! crossedfingers
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/13/13 06:54 AM

What is fly biting?

Lisa, like Bianca I too hope that her procedure gives you some answers. Nothing is more frustrating than having a mystery illness (or several of them!).
Posted by: Kayos

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/13/13 08:54 AM

I think fly biting is random jaw snapping like at an imaginary fly? My Max did this. He also did the stare off into space stuff adn even sometimes forgot how to listen like he was in some zone somewhere. In 2003 the vet did not think this was random seizure disorder ( I did think it was) we did not do an MRI and he eventually kind of out grew it as he aged and calmed down.

I hope you can find some answers for Jazz.
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/13/13 09:16 AM

Lisa, my goodness....you two have been through the grinder. I can't lend advise but also just wanted to express thoughts and wishes for better health for Jazzy and a break from all these health challenges. Hugs.
Posted by: Natalie559

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/13/13 09:50 AM

Lisa, sorry you and Jazz are going through this! I hope you get some good answers at your appt.
Posted by: Schnickle Fritz

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/13/13 10:55 AM

geez i am sorry to read this... hope you get some answers soon
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/13/13 11:09 AM

Thanks everyone, I appreciate it! I just want her to be okay and not have any more pain...or surgeries frown

Lori, thanks for all that description, I will be on the watch too paranoid2 She has had puffy neck glands on occassion. Her long term vet, who herself had salivary gland problems and had to have them removed, thought it might have been spasms due to that (speaking from her personal experience), and some google showed that that' not uncommon. I had forgotten about that, but I guess I was just holding onto that thought, but certainly I need to watch for other signs of possible seizure activity. She is also low normal thyroid - I'm vet said that may resolve once she is better, or not.

Part of me is more inclined to think neuromuscular problem.

Max was a fly biter, but there were always actually flies, but I always made ure of that shocked
Posted by: Barb E

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/13/13 11:30 AM

frown Poor Jazz and Poor you!!

I have no experience with dogs with seizures, I do have some weirdness of my own though.

I have a thing that happens where it feels like my brain is rolling over in my skull - very odd and a second thing where the skin crawls up the back of my neck over my scalp and then I feel a non-painful "zing" down my arm (This is triggered by sound).

I wore a monitor for 24 hours (I was pretty at work that day rofl) and it showed no seizures. I then had a sleep deprived EEG and though it showed no seizures it did show "abnormal electrical activity in my temporal lobe". I took medication for a time for it but decided the cure was worse than the illness when I found I couldn't think correctly and it was impacting my job.

What I have found over the years is that if I am sleep deprived then this all ramps up and if it's also cold I add in a restless leg/arm type issue even though I'm awake.

All that to simply say that I honestly believe that even without seizures I believe brains can do some odd things that impact the living being in odd ways.

I so hope you get to the bottom of this with Jazz, for both your sakes!

Lori - Good to see you here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: 3K9Mom

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/13/13 01:51 PM

hugging Thanks Barb. Not too much. I'm supposed to be spending LESS time on he Internet. It's not like the fairies show up and get my work done for me.

(Stupid Slacker Fairies) hammer

Besides, I've forgotten all the smiley shortcuts. I used to have a bazillion of them. I feel like I can barely communicate. But I go where my friends may need me. Just flash the Bat --uh- GSD bat ears signal in the night sky. gsdbeggin
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/14/13 07:39 AM

Lisa,

I've had limited internet access for some time and I wanted to try to digest this before posting. I just hate that little Jazz may need more surgery. Has she finished growing? If needed, does the surgery assist in achieving her final body structure or do you have to wait? It also makes sense that more than one thing is going on but you need some one hour TV drama to solve all those problems at once.

You know that I don't know anything specific. I just want her to be the world's best dog (well-one of the world's best dogs) for you.

Please keep posting,
Mary Jane
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/14/13 11:08 AM

Hi MJ, I had noticed that weren't around much, I hope that everything is okay.

Best guess is that she is 17 months now, and fully grown. I think more than anything, he's thinking that it wan't just the hernias that grew wrong when she was developing, so this would fix her, if they can find anything wrong. I had read a number of papers in human cases where there was weird urogenital stuff with inguinal hernias. I just hope they do find something (it will be very expensive to do this), and that this something will make a lot of thing a whole lot better.

Ugh, I am just getting her hernia and ultraound paid off. Don't know what I'd do without Care Credit. Also interesting note, the specialty clinic that is my main vet clinic for her, has things payable for a year w/o, while my old clinic always had 6 months. Interesting that they have different arrangements.

Anyway, the GABA he is on for her anxiety is working really, so that is making me happy.
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/14/13 05:24 PM

I am at a loss for words. I am so sad for you two going through this. All I can give is this hugging hugging feels like so little in the face of this situation. frown
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/14/13 07:01 PM

This is way out of my league but I just wanted to say that I'm thinking of you and your sweet Jazz, Lisa. hugging

I hope you can find answers and solutions!
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/14/13 08:25 PM

Paging Dr. House!

The scope sounds promising. The urine is only off when it's a free catch, so it sounds like something structural is holding the urine in. It doesn't happen when it's straight from the bladder. Plus, the issues with the hernia, there's a pretty good chance it's all related and *hopefully* a less complicated surgery/fix. It also may explain GI issues. A low infection can do that, and maybe she is anxious b/c it hurts to pee or something?

Oy. I feel for you. Not knowing is so hard.

When Rudy's thryoid came back low and low normal, I sent his info to Dr. Dodds. My vet was hesitant to treat Rudy for it, but Dr. Dodd said most definitely Rudy needed treatment. You may consider sending her Jazz's info, as well.

The seizure stuff, I'm no help.

I kind of hope they find something fixable on the scope. Stinks Jazz may be looking at more surgery, but hopefully they can fix her up and she will have a long, healthy life.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/15/13 03:00 AM

Thanks you guys, I really hope that this will find what's going on.

After researching more today, on GI issues and hernias and horses, I sure hope we are looking at the right part of the body.

m&j, the thyroid testing was through Dodds. It is low in some areas, but they think it might be because she is sick, and that it will resolve once we get her better. Time will tell I guess.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/15/13 03:00 AM

Originally Posted By: 3K9Mom
Besides, I've forgotten all the smiley shortcuts. I used to have a bazillion of them. I feel like I can barely communicate. But I go where my friends may need me. Just flash the Bat --uh- GSD bat ears signal in the night sky. gsdbeggin


laugh
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/16/13 11:09 PM

Just an update.

At the same time I've stopped the cipro, Jazz has had a terrible digestive flair, this time with vomiting and real diarrhea, and she won't eat anything. Could have also been the gunk she ate that fell from the garbage truck crazy Indy used to love the day after garbage day for that reason - would love for Jazz to not follow that quirk.

One thing that's pretty clear is that Jazz has quite a bit of inflammation, though it's not clear where it stems from. It seems to also be starting to show in her bloodwork, and the high WBC's in the urinalysis are also part of it.

So, I've been doing some research on IBD this weekend, incluing Crohn's and ulcerative colitis - these have some of the same blood profiles and symptoms that jazz is developing. I found that, at least part of cipro's anti-inflammatory effect is that it decreases TNF (tumor necrosis factor), so the cipro may very well be acting as an immune modulator rather than an antibiotic for her. I think that the vet thinks this too, though he also mentioned that it may have some hormonal actions, which are not yet off the table.

Before we finished our appt, I mentioned to him that I was pretty sure that he would say that he thought Jazz had IBD. He spoke a long "well.....", and then said, let's just see, and mentioned that he thinks that is still a real possibility. As I am learning more, I think it's very likely, and I'm hoping that there isn't some sort of anatomical thing wrong intestinally, because I can only afford one of these huge expenses about once a year!

She went without eating for about a day and a half, which is pretty tough for an 18 pound dog. But I am trying a protocol on her, and I guess we'll see how that goes in the next few days, she's held her food down this afternoon. Now that I think I am understanding her better, I hope to be able to manage things better too, and keep her off of abx.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/17/13 05:05 AM

Oh wow Lisa, I was so hoping that after Miss Jazz's initial hernia issues she would have perfect health. Regardless she couldn't have gone to a better person to get to the bottom of this. Sending you both so many good positive wishes :hugging
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/17/13 09:54 AM

You know better than I do that there are a lot of options for anti-inflammatories, drugs that can be taken long-term. Pathological immune activation has been 'fashionable' for research for several years and that means there is a lot known, some of which is probably true.

I certainly hope that Jazzie can digest whatever you're feeding-she already has a model figure.

MJ
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/17/13 02:31 PM

Thank you bianca hugging

MJ, I go to extra lengths for her food, even grind it into small amounts. I know they have a lot of drug therapies too, but I'm really hoping that we can avoid those, they all have such side effects. I have had two students with Crohn's (young males in their twenties), and it is such a battle. Lol, of course getting a young male in college to eat healthy isn't the eaiest thing either wink

I have a homeopathic protocol I will start for her as soon as it arrives, based on things in the Heel handbook for practitioners. I also learned that my favorite cancer supplement is used in crohn's and ulcerative colitis, as it suppresses TNF and some IL-whatever things in the immune system. I am thinking this might be why my dad feels little pain as he is aging, since his inflammation I being kept in check, and I also felt that when I was started taking it a bit ago.

She doe have the model figure! Since adding the sweet potato, she has filled out some (while keeping the same weight) - I am so hoping she never gets overweight smile
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/17/13 02:48 PM

Would an ultrasound show any anatomical abnormalities?
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/17/13 03:03 PM

An ultrasound would show "most" abnormalities. I guess there is an area (the neck of the bladder? I'm not sure), that the u/s cannot get to.

She had an u/s a couple of months or so ago, everything was completely normal. In a way, it's not clear if that was good or bad news.

I asked if when they are in there they can give a sort of probiotic wash, but they don't do that, although the area inside will be cleaned as part of the process.

Three days off of abx and her leg is already starting to shiver again. They better find something, and something fixable!
Posted by: Woodreb

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/17/13 04:49 PM

FWIW - My DH has IBS that was initially diagnosed as Crohn's. He has been successfully managing it with acupuncture and minimal medication. He's down to seeing the acupuncturist once every 3 weeks and reduced his meds to 1/4 of the amount he was taking a year ago.
We have done a few dietary changes to help that out as well, but he's not too open to cutting out foods he likes.

Maybe some acupuncture could help Jazz out eventually as well.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/17/13 05:27 PM

Thanks johanna, that may very well be down the road. I know the holistic vet she sees believes in the herbals as a change maker more than the acupuncture, but with jazz's extensive plant allergies, she may not tolerate the herbals well. The vet hasn't yet mentioned starting acupuncture, we'll see I guess. I do have my old vet that I may consult with regarding the acupuncture.

Basophils showed up in her blood count, though still in normal limits. But with the zillions of blood tests run on all the dogs here over their entire lifetimes, never had these show up.

I tried really hard with jazz to be proactive and head as much of this stuff off that I could, but I guess it jut wasn't enough frown
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/17/13 06:00 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
I tried really hard with jazz to be proactive and head as much of this stuff off that I could, but I guess it jut wasn't enough frown


Lisa, you are amazingly pro-active and have done beyond and above in detecting and heading stuff off the best that you can. That is all you can do. Please be at peace with that. Sometimes things are just out of our control no matter how much we do or try to prevent. I am glad little Jazzy has found you. Imagine her having ended up with someone who is clueless. The quality of life she has now despite the issues, is far better than she would have had with a clueless and non pro-active owner. Give yourself a hug from me please and don't forget taking care of yourself as well because you are important, too.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/17/13 06:14 PM

This is how she tells me she is hungry and it's time to eat...that's where I keep the sweet potatoes...


Posted by: JakodaCD OA

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/17/13 07:40 PM

awwww she is such a cutie!!! I'm so sorry she's still have med issues, but if anyone can be on top of it, it's YOU:) She is lucky to have you..:)
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/17/13 07:40 PM

Ha!! Smart girl!!
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/17/13 08:06 PM

Lisa,

You know full well that you're on top of Jazz' issues. She's young enough and strong enough to fix any number of things-if needed.

Such a pretty girl...
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/17/13 08:43 PM

Lol, thanks Elvi and Diane! I brought home a yam today instead of a sweet potato, and that generated quite a bit of sniffing, though I told her she'd have to wait for it until later.

MJ, yes, I know, I was just working so working so hard to avoid her getting to the point of needing so much intervention. I guess she is who she is, and we just do the best we can.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/18/13 04:30 AM

Feed me now mum! wub wub She is beautiful wub

Lisa, Elvi said it so much better than I ever could but I totally agree with her hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/18/13 07:14 AM

Thank you bianca!

Elvi, I didn't see your post before....thank you. I really appreciate it.
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/18/13 08:29 AM

Jazz seeking out her sweet potatoes-- too cute! wub I'm so happy she likes them! They give Grimmi yeasr issues due to the sugar content, but in general, sweet potatoes are supposed to be really helpful for inflammation.

I was thinking the same as Johanna, that acupuncture may help Jazz. I'm so happy Lisa that you're in with a good holistic vet, and can have that as an option if and when you wish to try that for her. As always, I'm sending your athletic, adorable sesame girl my very best wishes for wellness! bloomrose
Posted by: 3K9Mom

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/22/13 04:33 AM

Gosh, Lisa. This is just so weird. I keep thinking about Jazz and thinking we're overlooking something rare but obvious. Her symptom set is so specific, it seems like we should be able to put our finger on it.

I just don't know what it is.


Antibiotics have inflammatory properties, and cipro is no exception. In fact, I think it's one of the better ones that way. What if she has something other than infex? Like nerve inflammation? The GI system is loaded with nerve cells.

http://www.siumed.edu/~dking2/erg/giguide.htm#nerve

An ultrasound might not show this sort of inflammation. I'm not even sure a scope would. So if the gets come back negative, I think that gives you information.

The tremors, to me, are a key symptom, and I'd use those as a compass if I felt hopelessly lost.
Posted by: 3K9Mom

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/22/13 04:35 AM

"So if they come back negative..."

Stupid autocorrect. frown
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/22/13 11:12 AM

Patti, max had the same issues with any kind of potato, yam, etc. I'm not sure that Jazz has no issues, but certainly the least of issues with the garnets.

Thank you for your good wishes. I do think that the acu would help. I also think that this is true *inflammatory* bowel disease, which is a layer on top of the irritable.

Lori, I know. I keep going over everything in my head.

About 11 days after abx were stopped, and each day she feels a little worse frown

The theory is that something anatomical is making the urine pool, which I causing inflammation, maybe. I dunno.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/22/13 11:34 AM

Oh, the estimate contains a culture and sensitivity test, but not a biopsy, which, if they ee inflammation, I would gvuess they would want to look at the type of cells. Maybe they can do that with just a microscope there?
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/22/13 12:08 PM

I thought your point about cipro reducing TNF very attractive-but whatever it was doing it was beneficial. If it is immunomodulatory, surely it can be replaced with something more specific. Well, if the inflammation is from abnormal retention of urine, I guess surgery will take care of it. Except how many times does Jazmine have to go through all this?

They may do some identification of cell types in the urine by simple stains or even just morphology. Our vet does a lot in-house.

Are you satisfied with how Jazz is eating/digesting now? This is at least something non-experts like me can understand.

thanks for the update-take care,
MJ

Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/22/13 01:52 PM

I obviously don't have any medical knowledge but wonder if, together with there something being off anatomically, her digestive issues are fueled by her anxiety. Given what we know of what stress does to us humans, it could have the same effects on animals. So, maybe once her anxieties are in check her digestive system will find it's balance as well (hopefully).
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/22/13 04:15 PM

As she moves further from the abx, she becomes lethargic, stools get looser, and there are more urinary issues that are subtle that I wouldn't see if I weren't looking. Left long enough, she will start pee'ing frequently and inappropriately. When we got home yesterday, she crashed, deeply, for about 5 hours, very not normal.

I will have a better idea on the digestion after the next couple days, it is much better than it was when she flaired last week, which is a relief.

The cipro is weird. I found that one way it can create seizures in a dog is that it lowers GABA, which inhibits excitation of ther nervous. Unrelated, unbeknownst to the holistic vet, she prescribed GABA for Jazz's anxiety. Almost seems like if the cipro makes her better, the gaba might make her worse, or maybe it's completely unrelated. Indy could not tolerate the florquinolone abx, she had excitation of the nervous system, which make me wonder if gaba would have helped her, and helped her tolerate the abx that the vet wanted to use on her, but couldn't.
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/22/13 05:37 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
When we got home yesterday, she crashed, deeply, for about 5 hours, very not normal.


Wow, poor Jazzy. Like I said..I don't have medical knowledge but most definitely sending healing wishes for her.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/23/13 02:45 AM

hugging I wish I had something else to offer hugging
Posted by: SeanRescueMom

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/23/13 09:43 PM

Lisa, I have not read your thread from the beginning but wonder if it's possible Jazz could have something similar to ileitis or jejunoileitis. She's so adorable, keeping my fingers crossed for your sweetheart. crossedfingers
Posted by: elisabeth

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/24/13 01:19 AM

Not sure how I missed this thread on my check-in's but wanted to extend my well wishes to sweet silly adorable Jazzy!

I wish I have something to add as well.... zooming good thoughts your way!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/24/13 02:00 AM

Thank you Elvi and bianca and elisabeth! She is such a happy little girl smile

SRM, I think those, or something similar, are on the list! (I did have to google them though smile )

I was looking at urinary strictures, since that is what the specialist mentioned, and it looks like it really is a by-product (scarring) from inflammation, rather than The Thing that would fix her, and it's possible she could have them also in other parts of her body: http://www.ehow.com/way_5230298_treatments-strictures.html

This points to inflammation as a cause. If it's TNF (tumor necrosis factor) that is increased and causing the inflammation, I found a study that showed that that can decrease GABA ( http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10686516 ), which in turn would create anxiety.

But I am not sure if giving her the GABA isn't making things worse, and there are some indications that GABA should be helpful at reversing inflammation (actually, via a probiotic): http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2012-06/asfm-ibp061312.php

As a side note, they might be making a link between MS and GABA, which, if Dr. Clemmons is right, that DM behaves like MS, maybe this might be a partial therapy. I don't recall it being in the list of supplements.

But then again, for Jazz, the GABA may not be affecting anything, she just seems to be crashing so quickly off of abx this time. I had stopped most of her supplements, to make sure that nothing is masked on Thursday, and in case she has surgery, and she's not doing so well today. It's going to be a long week.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/24/13 02:31 AM

frown hugging
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/24/13 09:15 AM

Ditto Bianca's post.

hugging

Wish I had more to add, but this is all in the great field of the unknown for me. But I am reading, looking at links and trying to absorb it all.

To Jazzy - I hope you are having a very good day, Good Girl. fetch
Posted by: arycrest

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/24/13 10:21 AM

hugging hugging Don't have any suggestions ...
... just wanted to send my best wishes to both you and Jazzy!!! hugging hugging
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/24/13 11:13 AM

teary so tough when they aren't feeling well. grouphug
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/24/13 03:37 PM

She is doing a little better today, I've been giving quite a bit of d-mannose since yesterday, every couple of hours, which helps a lot, and she is feeling much better. poop is frequent and alternating between liquid and gel-ish, so sounds like colitis of some form. Trying to figure out what I can do without messing up the u/a tomorrow and the procedure on thursday. I will leave a note with the doc tomorrow. Am trying a few things for gut inflammation.

I used marshmallow before, but I don't want to ue that or SEB sortly before a possible surgical procedure, it would always make max's gums go pale. Stopped the st. John's wort a week or so ago so it wouldn't interfere with any of anesthesia.
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/24/13 05:51 PM

I guess everybody should have a Lisa-constantly working to improve their life.

Jazzy (whose name I usually misspell) dear girl, you did great finding the best possible home, now please present something fixable in all these exams.

KW KW KW crossedfingers crossedfingers crossedfingers crossedfingers crossedfingers crossedfingers crossedfingers crossedfingers crossedfingers crossedfingers crossedfingers crossedfingers
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/24/13 07:13 PM

Thanks MJ smile

I sure we can get this figured out...it's one thing to have a senior shepherd on abx routinely, another thing for a 17 month old dog! Just waiting to get a diagnosis is tough - I have some herbals here from the holistic vet, but I don't want to use them yet in case she has to have surgery.
Posted by: Tammi

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/24/13 09:11 PM

Lisa, is the stool issue recent or has it been onging? To much d-mannose can cause diarrhea

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
She is doing a little better today, I've been giving quite a bit of d-mannose since yesterday, every couple of hours, which helps a lot, and she is feeling much better. poop is frequent and alternating between liquid and gel-ish, so sounds like colitis of some form.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/24/13 09:29 PM

Thanks Tammi, I do think that the mannose makes her stools looser.

I wasn't giving it to her for that reason, but everything went ka-plooy (is that a word?) at once. When she started hiding and trying to look everywhere for relief, I started the mannose, and that helped fairly quickly and allowed her (and me) to get some sleep.

Now we are trying to get the stools having some form - I need to back off of the mannose now to have a shot at that - I have a feeling that the probiotics don't do much when she is on mannose. I found an abstract that said it helped chickens ward off salmonella, so it is doing something to her gut, maybe flushing out good bacteria too? Haven't a clue.
Posted by: Tammi

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/24/13 09:47 PM

How many strains in your probiotics? I read an article that stated sometimes, when the system is taxed, multi strain probiotics can actually cause looser stools. Try just acidophilus only if you're not already. Made a difference here.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/24/13 10:19 PM

There are several strains in the one I've been using. I will look around and see if I have a simpler one here. Hate to see her feel so unwell, but at least she isn't running to the door every 30 minutes. Looks like transit time is about 5 hours, judging by the charcoal that just made her stools real dark.
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/25/13 01:42 PM

Thursday can't come soon enough.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/25/13 03:18 PM

Amen to that m&j. Glad I'm on spring break, but a very stressful break.

Just dropped off a urine sample so we have a "before" look.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/25/13 04:10 PM

I have been wondering if everything isn't being caused by a C-Diff infection:
http://www.cdiffdiscuss.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8976

My dad was in the hospital with one right before that last hernia surgery of her, and she was given abx known to make C-diff worse.

Lots of questions.
Posted by: Barb E

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/25/13 06:18 PM

No words of wisdom, just a lot of good thoughts and huggings
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/25/13 10:33 PM

Thanks Barb smile

I stopped by my favorite health food store today, and discovered that one of the new guys that works there is actually a homeopathic doctor, which is way cool. I didn't know that when I spoke to him. He said for C Diff, he would use nano particle colloidal silver and the probiotic I went in there for, Saccromyces boul.

Will keep this in mind for after Thursday.

Jazz is not doing well at digestively, hoping for a better tomorrow. Kills me, because I know I could make it all better by getting her cippro, but can't do that yet.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/26/13 02:56 AM

Sending you both lots of hugging and keeping all paws crossed that Thursday will finally shed some light on your sweet girls problems.
Posted by: Natalie559

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/26/13 01:38 PM

Gosh Lisa, seriously I just want things to be easy for you for once, you should be able to enjoy your dog(s) without worrying and thinking so much, I guess this isn't helping, it just stinks and I feel for you. I truly hope you get answers soon and can move forward. Hugs to you and little Jazz.
Posted by: Hatterasser

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/26/13 06:14 PM

Poor little gal. I hope they find some solution on Thursday. This can't be pleasant for you...or for her either.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/26/13 11:10 PM

It would be so nice to have an easy dog. Do they really exist?

She's such a good girl, can't wait for her to feel better!
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/26/13 11:19 PM

Poor Jazz. frown I use colloidal silver for my cats' viral infections and it stops little eye infections in Rafi.

I hope you can find another solution than the cipro. That is probably destroying anything good in her intestines and now they are doing all of the studies and finding that stuff is irreplaceable.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/27/13 12:18 AM

Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow
....I hope you can find another solution than the cipro. That is probably destroying anything good in her intestines and now they are doing all of the studies and finding that stuff is irreplaceable.

I know frown

teary
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/27/13 02:50 AM

I can empathize. I just broke down and put my cats on a super strong antibiotic because they are really sick, yet again. It's been 10 months since they were on this before but it is the third time for Gio and the fourth time for Varda and they are both under two!!!!!!!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/27/13 03:12 AM

Oh no, I'm sorry Ruth. Yes, it's exactly that feeling though!
Posted by: SeanRescueMom

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/27/13 09:58 AM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
It would be so nice to have an easy dog. Do they really exist?


Good question, Lisa. When you find the answer please let me know. wink Hope Jazz can get some relief and feel better soon (you too). hug
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/27/13 12:40 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
It would be so nice to have an easy dog. Do they really exist?


Once we understood his fears, Wolf was an easy dog-until his last illness anyway. We had a protocol for his return from boarding that prevented his colitis. Otherwise, he was in good health, no parasites, no TBD. His exercise was either in quiet places or at quiet times. Inside, unless eating or actively playing he could always be found in his safe spot, in the front bedroom. But, my dear friends, it was such a limited life. I know now looking at Mr. Mars rule the world.

It must be awful to have so many worries about a dog who has so much potential. Maybe, just maybe, this is the beginning of a real solution to Jazz' problems. (KW very often and loud)

I'll stay tuned for tomorrow,
MJ
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/27/13 01:04 PM

Sean wub

Wolf and Mars, very different, aren't they? It took about 6 years, and then indy was relatively easy, or should I say stable - I understood her and her health quirks by then, and we had a good team on board to helpp. Max - he was never easy wub

I do hope this is the start of some definitive progress.

I found a protocol someone used to cure their C Diff by pulsing flagyl and integrating aalternatives, and I'm thinking that will be our next step for the gut once we get past tomorrow.
Posted by: MSD

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/27/13 01:10 PM

MaxaLisa— hi, just wanted to say I can really feel for both you and Jazz. It’s not fun when they are sick and you do everything that is (supposed to be) right and still it doesn’t bring them to near the good health they should be. If anyone can figure it out, I know YOU can. Sending goods thoughts to you and Jazz. Hugs.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/27/13 01:16 PM

Thanks MSD, I *know* you know what this is like. I hope we both find success!
Posted by: MSD

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/27/13 01:27 PM

You're welcome. Me TOO!!! smile
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/27/13 04:04 PM

Just checking in to let you know I am thinking of the Jazz Girl today.

hugging
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/27/13 08:44 PM

Send good thoughts you get some answers tomorrow. I'll be checking back all day for an update.

Take care of yourself, as well. Waiting is awful!

Hugs to Jazz from Rudy.
Posted by: Tammi

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/27/13 09:23 PM

Will be thinking of you and Jazz tomorrow. Fingers crossed there will be good news!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/27/13 11:31 PM

Thank you!!!

I just had a very expensive conversation with the internal med vet. He thinks, considering her exposure from the hospital from my dad, and the recent colitis, that a fecal PCR for clostridium, as well as other things is warranted.

He also thinks that, although he can't do the whole colon, he also thinks looking at the lower half of her colon while she is already under anesthesia would be a good idea, and getting some samples to biopsy.

I tried to find a reason to disagree with him, but couldn't. He said that if they find inflammation in there, depending on the type, it does dictate different therapies. I would certainly go the alternative therapy route first, but sure would be nice, for a change, to actually know what is wrong for once.

So, we will try to get a fecal sample in to send away for testing (which I'm sure is expensive), and he will start with scoping the vagina and bladder - his hunch still is that there is something wrong in there. Depending on what they find there, they will move on to the colon.

And then I will need to get a second job wink
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/28/13 03:12 AM

Oh Lisa hugging I am so hoping they find something today and that it has an easy solution hugging
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/28/13 07:00 AM

Well, it does sound expensive frown Hopefully you get the answers you are looking for. It would be nice to get her back to normal! And worth it.
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/28/13 07:29 AM

Tell yourself, "Better to pay now then to keep paying for treatments/therapies/supplements that aren't treating the problem and continuing the guessing game".

I hear you on the second job..........

Praying for some answers today.
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/28/13 08:53 AM

Well that does sound thorough. I think that you could easily write and sell
'A Primer to Understanding Your Dog's Health: 500 Key Questions to Ask'

Like m&j said, investments in Jazz' health now are the smartest things you can do.

Like Leah, I hope Jazz gets back to normal, really hope.

Mary Jane
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/28/13 12:14 PM

She has been dropped off, as they dragged her away shivering and fighting and crying teary

And if I have one more person say that her separation anxiety is just feeding off of me, I think my patience is going to give - they do not know what it's like to live with a dog who often lives in terror.

Fecal PCR is about $230. Bet it will be negative.

I will say that for the last two days, I've been giving double dose probiotics 4 times a day and she is much better, mostly formed poop I have been using three different kinds of probiotics - the mercola probiotics (contains saccharomyces boulardii for C Diff type stuff), an enteric coated one (renew life 15 billion), and one that I give by itself is a saccharomyces boulardii and MOS (like fos or d-mannose). All but the lat one given with 1,000 mg of l-glutamine, and all given away from food.

The vet had said that things like d-mannose would not affect the procedure today - hope he was right. Sometimes they underestimate the modalities, but he's used this stuff, so I gotta trust what he says about it.
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/28/13 12:44 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
She has been dropped off, as they dragged her away shivering and fighting and crying teary



teary


When can you pick her up?

MJ
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/28/13 12:48 PM

I don't know, not until tomorrow if she has surgery.
Posted by: Hatterasser

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/28/13 01:43 PM

Poor poor Jazz. I'm sure she is terrified esp. since you're not there to reassure her.

Thanks, by the way. You just reminded me that I have to dig in the creases in the couch to come up with something to pay on account to the vet before the end of the month. I hear you about a second job. I'd be happy with just the first one if I could find it.

I know it's expensive but it doesn't hurt to talk to your vet about time payments and discounts. He can only say no. But I do like that he's taking it seriously and looking for causes while she's under anesthesia. He seems to be thorough.

Wishing Jazz good luck and here's hoping they find whatever is wrong.
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/28/13 01:55 PM

Gosh this is heart wrenching teary You two so deserve a huge break. Enough already!!!
hugging

Many, many wishes for both of you..for a better tomorrow, perfect health and things to finally go right for a change.
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/28/13 03:58 PM

hugging Hoping for the best.
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/28/13 04:05 PM

Waiting patiently...........
Posted by: 3K9Mom

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/28/13 04:29 PM

Waiting impatiently.... hugging
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/28/13 05:43 PM

Quote:
And if I have one more person say that her separation anxiety is just feeding off of me, I think my patience is going to give - they do not know what it's like to live with a dog who often lives in terror.


teary Of all things for someone to say to you when you already have so much on your mind.

Do you need us to deck someone? smashcomputer

That really irks me. I think people making comments like that must be so clueless about SA. I have seen it and thank my lucky stars that I have not had a dog with SA. Just dealing with seniors with sudden noise phobias was enough for me. Or Skye's mild twilight cognitive issues.

Poor Jazzy - you have patiently brought her so far. I hope this does not set her back and create more fear.

Lisa - for you and others I would like to remind you about Care Credit. It is very inexpensive for short term payments. And it can be used for our pets care and our own in emergency situations. It never hurts to check it out just to be prepared 'in case' it is needed.

hugging for you and Jazz Girl.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/28/13 07:06 PM

Just a quick check in while I'm stopped at a light.

She just got done a bit ago. The vet will call me in an hour or so. That means no surgery, so that's good, I think!
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/28/13 07:41 PM

whistling
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/28/13 08:33 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
that's good !


please yes
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/28/13 09:22 PM

Okay, here's the scoop. Overall, I think this is good news.

Fecal PCR has been sent off and should know by Monday.

The vagi-scope, or whatever it's called...two things...they found a "tag" that runs along the vagina, kinda a flap. In some cases it causes no problem. In others it could cause symptoms like we are seeing. He snipped it off, and she might bleed a bit over the next few days, and will be on abx for 5 days for that. It might grow back frown

He saw some irregular-ness in the bladder lining, which he took a biopsy sample. He said this just might be her normal, or could be a sign of cystitis (IC) or maybe something else (? He wasn't too specific), we should know by monday.

He did not do the lower colon scope thingee, but he was able to get same samples to biopsy (I did not ask him how!), and he asked me if I wanted to send them in - nice guy, thinking of costs, but I said to send them in, the information will be valuable to us. Again - should know monday.

So, I am over my folks', and will leave in about 20 minutes or so to go pick her up. So glad that she gets to come home. I am so happy he will get to come home tonight.

Bonnie, yes, Care Credit is my friend! I am just finishing paying off her hernia surgery (interest free!) And was looking forward to one less monthly payment. Very happy to have it available to me.

I am glad we did this, and glad that he had that hunch that we would for sure find something. I have not yet found an instance where his hunch was wrong.
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/28/13 09:34 PM

I am kind of glad he found that flap......and removed it. Hopefully, that is what was causing all this trouble.
Glad they didn't find anything that warranted a restructuring in surgery!!!
So now we hurry up and wait for Monday's results.
Things are looking up for our girl, Jazz.

Take a breather. You deserve it, Lis.

Mary
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/28/13 09:46 PM

Glad things went well and that she's coming home tonight. Hopefully these are the puzzle pieces you need to get her on the track to truly good health! crossedfingers
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/28/13 10:41 PM

Lisa, I am glad everything went well with the procedure. Hopefully, the results will narrow down what the root issue is to where it can be treated. Sounds like you have the right Vet to take care of this situation. I am sure Jazzy is glad to be back home with you. Wishing you both a restful night.
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/28/13 11:58 PM

It sounds like this vet is very thorough and great for communication.

I hope this will all come together now and Jazz finds herself in better health.

hugging
Posted by: arycrest

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/29/13 12:55 AM

hugging Sounds like Jazz is in good hands!!! Thinking of both of you!!! hugging
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/29/13 01:58 AM

I am so pleased they found something and keeping everything crossed that this may be the end of her troubles. Please give her a very gentle smooch from me hugging
Posted by: 3K9Mom

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/29/13 05:04 AM

Glad Jazz came through the day well and will be home with you tonight.

But please Lisa, we can wait until you get to your destination. You need not post comments at stop lights. For one, those texting tickets are very expensive ("But Your Honor, I was posting in my dog forum, not texting!") and I don't think the county courts take Care credit. poke

And second, Jazz isn't the only one that needs you home safely.

hugging
Posted by: JakodaCD OA

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/29/13 07:35 AM

also glad Jazz came thru ok and it does sound like you have a great vet who's on top of things! Hope she feels better very soon!
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/29/13 07:44 AM

Lisa, I like that this vet went after his hunches. May this be the solution for Miss Jazz! May she heal speedily after this procedure, soon to have the abx behind her, and may her recovery bring you a healthier Jazzy!
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/29/13 08:28 AM

You know a lot now and will know more Monday. What's known now is not too bad. So please have a great weekend with Miss Jazmine, you both need a good time.

thanks for the update,
MJ
Posted by: Barb E

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/29/13 09:01 AM

Is it Monday yet?

Glad things went well hugging
Posted by: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/29/13 09:39 AM

Lisa, I am so sure that it tore your heart out seeing Jazzy in distress and you not able to do any thing to help her. I sure hope that you and the Doc found the residual problem that is not allowing Jazzy girl to be healthy and you guys having fun.
Posted by: Natalie559

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/29/13 09:47 AM

Glad things went well and that she got to go home with you Lisa, take care.
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/29/13 01:33 PM

Sounds promising! I will be glad when she is back home with you.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/29/13 02:53 PM

Thank you everyone! Val, nice to see you able to check in, and Lori, of course you are right, shame on me frown

We got home last night, I slipped her a melatonin so she would stop trying to lick herself and fall asleep, and I fell asleep with my phone in hand at 8:30pm-ish (getting ready to post)...lol, guess I was exhausted.

She is on tramadol and clavamox for a few days. He wanted to give her cephalexin, but I explained to him that I have an emotional problem with that antibiotic and asked if there was another one we could use smile

I've been using calendula and an aloe/E mix on her genital area, seems she has some razor burn. Thank goodness nothing at all like Cooper's (poor Coop!). There is a fair amount of swelling in there, so I'm not sure how much of the licking is from the shave, and how much is discomfort.

She's outside sleeping in the sunny grass right now wub

(I asked them to check her teeth while she was under, to see if she damaged anything with her SA chewing, and seems there is noticeable wear on the canines, but nothing visible in terms of a fracture. So glad I switched away from a metal crate at the first signs of chewing.)

The estimate was between $1,700 and $2,200, so I expected at least $2,500 for the bill. I was charged $1,839 yesterday, for it seems everything, so he really did keep the cost down, and I'm very thankful for that.

Here is the endoscopy report:

Quote:
Procedure: Vaginoscopy/Cystoscopy

Findings: There is a small band of tissue between the dorsal urethral papilla and the dorsal wall of the vaginal vault. The vagina cranial to the band is mildly erythematous. No masses or foreign bodies are noted in the vaginal vault. The urethra is grossly normal. The urinary bladder mucosa is slightly irregular. Both ureter openings are visualized and unremarkable. biopsies were obtained from the bladder mucosa. The vaginal band was cut with scissors. Blind colon biopsies were obtained.

Assessment: Persistent band of tissue in the area of the hymen that was cut. Mild bladder mucosal irregularity of unknown significance.


I haven't visited Dr. Google yet smile
Posted by: Tara

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/29/13 03:17 PM

I'm glad Miss Jazzy is getting some answers! Let me know if you want any diagrams for the anatomy aspects. I can PM or email you.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/29/13 06:04 PM

Thanks Tara!

If you have anything that shows that flappy thing, that would be great? I don't know if you have my email?

Also, I had to go look up her body score, guess the vet uses a 9 point scale, and she was listed as 4/9. I thought this was a good chart: http://www.greencrossvet.com.au/images/Newsletter%20Images/DOG_BODY_CHART.JPG

Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/29/13 08:27 PM

svelte
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/29/13 09:11 PM

LOL, that's it MJ!
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/30/13 03:17 AM

That's a great word! She is built for speed not comfort (unlike me laugh )I hope she is feeling a bit more herself today (tonight?). Poor Jazzy, the last thing she needs is clipper rash frown
Posted by: Tara

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/30/13 01:43 PM

I'll try to find an image with the tissue flap if I can.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/30/13 04:22 PM

Thanks Tara, to be honest, I haven't googled the technical terms yet, it's on my list of things I need to do.
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/30/13 05:18 PM

I hope Jazz feels better today (and Lisa, too).
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/30/13 08:31 PM

She is feeling better today, but I have to keep up the tramadol, or he keeps licking and biting the area.

Had to fulfil some parental responsibilites this morning, then mow the lawns, I'm exhausted!
Posted by: Barb E

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/30/13 11:13 PM

I wub her!!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/31/13 12:57 AM

Thanks Barb!
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/31/13 02:06 AM

Poor little one, it must be uncomfortable frown She is so pretty wub
Posted by: JakodaCD OA

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/31/13 07:49 AM

aww poor girl, LOVE the pic of her in the grass:) such a cutie:)
Posted by: Shepherds

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/31/13 09:49 AM

Seems everyone is having their own fair share of health troubles with their four legged lot. Hope Jazz is feeling much better today.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/31/13 12:26 PM

Thanks guys, I was thinking that she is growing up so calm and stately for a little thing, but I think she just might be zonked from the tramadol, and I am giving her melatonon at night to sleep.

She is licking a lot, and still puffy swollen - I hope that that gets better soon.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/31/13 03:06 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa

He has a list of things that could be causing problems for Jazz. It's not exactly a short list. It ranges from vaginitis, to complications from the hernias, to a wide gamut of neurological problems, including borderline seizure activity frown and also including hormonal problems (addison's, etc.) He didn't come out and say it, but it was inferred in one of his answers, but I believe that he thinks there may be more than one thing going on.


I now have the report from our appt on 3/12, and, for completeness, will put this info here.

Differentials for the urinary problem that is responsive to cipro include: secondary to anatomic abnormalities (including circumferential stricture or bands across the vestibule/urethral pappilla/vaginovestibular region allowing urine pooling, ectopic ureters, urine retention secondary to weak abdominal muscular contraction), sterile interstitial cystits vs. primary neurological disorder (dysautonomia, detrusor-urethral dyssynergia, detrusor areflexia with sphincter hypertonia or areflexia). Uh, I have some googling to do if this procedure didn't fix the issue....spell check is pretty useless here since everything is underlined as wrong, so I have no idea which might be misspelled, guess these aren't normal vocabulary words shocked

Differentials for the intermittent soft stools include high fiber diet, stress colitis, LP or eosinophilic enterocolonopathy, infectious enterocolities, GI parasites, dysautonomia or disorders of GI motility, pancreatitis, hypoadrenocroticism. Cannot rule out GI lymphoma though rare in a patient of this age.

Differentials for tremors include discomfort secondary to possible persistent/recurrent vaginitis, focal seizures, spinal cord injury/congential malformation.

*************

Her licking and tremors since thursday are getting worse rather than better, I should be talking to the vet tomorrow, and hopefully she will feel better tomorrow too - hoping it's a reponse to inflammation.
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/31/13 06:04 PM

frown Darn it - this has got to get better soon to give both you and Jazz some relief.

That sounds scary and complicated.

hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 03/31/13 10:29 PM

I sure am hoping that with this thing he did last week, that that will get at 80% of the stuff, and the rest will be intensive digestive repair. That would be the best result, so I am keeping crossedfingers
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/01/13 06:57 AM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
I sure am hoping that with this thing he did last week, that that will get at 80% of the stuff, and the rest will be intensive digestive repair. That would be the best result, so I am keeping crossedfingers


I think that's exactly what's going to happen.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/01/13 01:11 PM

Thanks m&j, optimism welcome!

On her razor burn, it was pretty irritated, and she got to it a few times, and now it's feeling lumpy (razor stubble), so it's been uncomfortable.

I tried aloe/vit E, which didn't work, then I tried calendula/hypericum, and that didn't work. Turns out this product did the trick, so I wanted to pass it along.

http://www.psoriaflora.org/
Posted by: Tara

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/01/13 06:49 PM

Lisa, I just sent you a PM.
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/01/13 08:15 PM

I was hoping that there might be more results from all those tests of Jazzy today.

I want to Jazz to be as good (inside) as she looks.

MJ
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/01/13 09:20 PM

Ugh. I don't know what to say. I feel so much for you both. hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/02/13 12:49 AM

Thank you Kristin smile

I was hoping for answers today too, but no word. All I managed to do is lose my new small digital camera frown
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/02/13 02:09 AM

frown frown to both frown
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/02/13 06:44 AM

Maybe the camera will turn up soon, I hope? May word come soon today. Answers will be good. I'm continuing to send strong well-wishes for Jazz!
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/02/13 08:31 AM

I don't exactly know what to hope for for Jazz, except a generic simple to fix something that gives her a great quality of life.

Please find your new camera, it's a selfish request, so many people get a taste of sugar and spice looking at your pictures of Jazzy.

crossedfingers for good reports about Jazz

MJ
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/02/13 08:43 AM

I hope you get more info from the vets soon. frown

Feel good, little Jazzy.

Lisa - could you have left your camera in your old car when you traded it?
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/02/13 12:03 PM

I'm not sure what to hope for either...she's not feeling "well" and may need a round of cipro, as the clavamox isn't doing much for her discomfort, though it was given so the biopsy areas don't get infected otherwise I guess.

Sugar and spice wub

I was just taking pictures with it when I went on campus, and got a few good ones where she was actuall looking right at the camera. I think I put it in my jacket packet and it fell out into the grass when I took my jacket off. I looked for it for an hour, like a needle in a haystack in the tall grass, we had walked everywhere. I'm sure I would have heard it fall onto hard urface...just really bummed, so stupid.
Posted by: Schnickle Fritz

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/02/13 12:42 PM

feelingblue
Posted by: Hatterasser

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/02/13 02:16 PM

Sorry about the loss of the camera. But here's hoping you get better info re: Jazzy's ailments. She so needs to feel better soon.
Posted by: arycrest

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/02/13 05:24 PM

I hope someone honest finds your camera and returns it to you ... that's really sad.

Sending lots of warm thoughts and healing vibes Jazz's way!!! grouphug
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/02/13 07:23 PM

Very bummed about the camera, but I guess it's better to lose the little camera than my phone. Highly unlikely it will get turned in, I'll see in the next couple of days. Even worse, I didn't have a chance to see the new pics on the laptop, so I don't know if that's a camera I would want again.

still no news...

I know that with biopsies for the others dogs, the vet always said up to 5 working days, today will be day 3. I'm sure the stool sample is back, but I bet it's negative since I haven't heard anything. I will put in a call if I don't hear back by tonight. I know that he usually phones in the evening before his day is done.

I used a test strip on her urine today, and it looked like there were no WBC's, so maybe she will just feel better once she is done with the drugs (tramadol and clavamox) and I start rehabbing the gut. This morning was the last of the drugs, so I guess no we see if she can hold up on her own.

The d-mannose seems to give her loose stools (though seemed to make her less painful), so I've switched to cranberry alone for now.
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/02/13 09:01 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa

still no news...



hmmmph

It's probably just the usual time of reading samples and returning results.

Doesn't make it any easier, though.

Cranberry always sounds reasonable.

MJ
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/02/13 09:07 PM

Originally Posted By: Mary Jane

hmmmph

EXACTLY!!

penguin_spin pacing
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine....results are in!! - 04/02/13 10:38 PM

Okay, just got off the phone with the internal medicine vet. Stuff was found, on every test shocked

First, the PCR GI test. There was no Clostridium difficile, but there was Clostridium perfringens: http://marvistavet.com/html/clostridium_perfringens.html The test picks up parts of the DNA. If anything that they test for is positive, then they run the test for the toxin, and she was positive for the toxin. He would like to treat this with probiotic therapy if we are able to, to crowd out the bad stuff, since the probiotic therapy is better for long term recovery, if we are able to do it. If she has a flair, particularly if it's late on a Friday night when things always seem to happen, we'll go with a course of flagyl. I honestly think she came with this, since she has always needed a lot of probiotics, and stronger and stronger ones at that. The antibiotics for the urine problems haven't helped I'm sure.

Interesting that the clavamox is helping the stools a lot more than flagyl.

The colon biopsy showed evidence of moderate non-specific colitis. We are hoping that treating the C. perf will treat that.

The bladder biopsy showed mild inflammation in the bladder wall. His first thought is that that would be a bacterial infection, but none of the urinalyses showed any bacteria whatsoever, so it could be a sterile cystitis, and they do not have a good understanding about the cause of this. It could also be that there was some type of bacterial infection that was at such a low level we could never see it. It is not surprising at all that there is inflammation, each urinalyses did have WBC, which, in the absence of bacteria, often indicate inflammation.

He believes that the barrier between the bladder and the urine in the bladder (I guess that would be the "coating" of the bladder?) is not strong. We first want to make sure we get the digestive stuff under control before starting to mess with supplements which may or may not help with this. My thought is that maybe the same process that gave her weak abdominal muscles might have also given her a weak barrier too, poor thing. I sure wish I knew what happened to her the first 4 months of her life, and before. Her high specific gravity means that the urine is very condensed, which is also a bladder irritant, and could be contributing.

In the cases he's handled (extra tissue in the vagina), he said approximately 20% of them have regrown, and if they regrow, it most likely will happen in the next several weeks.

We have a checkup scheduled in a week and a half. For now, probiotic and cranberry therapy. He said the discomfort and the licking that she is doing now is not unusual after the procedure, but if it doesn't get better by next week-ish, then to give him a call.

So, some good news, I think - very happy to find the C. perf, and the colon and bladder biopsies I guess are consistent, so I guess we are headed in the right direction.

More on C. perf:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostridium_perfringens
http://www.livestock.novartis.com/pdf/1501-037-05_Q&A_final.pdf (about cattle, but almost sounds like this could be a cause for HGE?)
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine....results are in!! - 04/02/13 10:56 PM

Wow! I am speechless. At least you now know what is going on. Hopefully, they can give you a solid direction as to how to resolve these issues.

I think you mentioned one time that you have bought products from Garden of Life. They just came out with a new probiotic mix that is amazing. It is a 5-day plan to restore what has been exhausted though detox and antibiotics, etc. I used this product and had amazing results. Maybe it would help Jazzy?

Here is the link

http://www.gardenoflife.com/Products-for-Life/RAW-Digestion/RAW-Probiotics-5-Day-Max-Care.aspx
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine....results are in!! - 04/02/13 11:16 PM

Thanks Elvi!

We have tried their regular RAW probiotics, and the she didn't do well on them at all. Before she started on the clavamox, I had been giving her a combination of three different ones, along with some l-glutamine. If they still work over the next couple of days, I'll post about it, in case it's helpful to others.

Myself, I'm using the Garden of Life Primal Defense Ultra. The first ingredient in the Ultra is Sacchromyces boulardii, which is for C. diff, which I take because of my exposure from my folks. But it has barley in it, which she is allergic to, of course.
Posted by: Tara

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine....results are in!! - 04/02/13 11:23 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
Interesting that the clavamox is helping the stools a lot more than flagyl.


Clostridium is within the spectrum for Clavamox, so while it wouldn't normally be the first thing you reached for, it's not too surprising that it's working. May just be a strain that's a more susceptible to the Clavamox than the metronidazole. I think I've seen at least one study (I think in Sweden) that showed a decreased susceptibility of C. perfringens to metronidazole.

C. perfringens is better studied in production animals (cattle, goats, sheep, chicken, swine, etc.). There's some literature about it in dogs, but not too much. This is a link to a free article about a scary case of fatal HGE thought to be caused by C. perfringens, but there's some good background info and the references list could be helpful to find some more info. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3327598/
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine....results are in!! - 04/02/13 11:53 PM

Kristin, off to read. Read the abstract, how very sad frown

Makes sense about the flagyl, same thing has happened with giardia. When they used flagyl on my mom with the C. Diff., it didn't help.

I see that straining is listed as one of the symptoms in many of the links. Why is that so I wonder? Seems counter-intuitive. Jazz has a motility problem, but I always guessed it was her musculature.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine....results are in!! - 04/03/13 03:11 AM

Oh wow Lisa, I am so glad you found sweet Jazzy to know to look for all these issues. Keeping her in my thoughts that things are going to improve with this plan hugging

So sorry about your camera too frown
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine....results are in!! - 04/03/13 08:17 AM

I really like your vet, working through her whole hindquarters with you. The treatment plan can't do any harm itself (I think) and you and the physician are looking too closely to miss anything that might change.

So something like frozen cranberry yoghurt for Jazz smile ? Just something to make her feel as pretty as she looks.

take it easy,
MJ
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine....results are in!! - 04/03/13 08:18 AM

A diagnosis with the c perf is a good thing, and having a gameplan is a good thing! May Jazzy now be on the road to feeling better. I'm hoping for no re-grow, and that she really does well with your management of her. Such a gorgeous, sweet girl! I'm sorry about your camera. We crave Jazzy pics! She's got a fan club here, ya know. wink
Posted by: Qyn

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine....results are in!! - 04/03/13 09:36 AM

You have both been on a rollercoaster ride with Jazzy's health I sure hope this diagnosis and regime helps combat at least some of her problems! hugging
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine....results are in!! - 04/03/13 09:41 AM

Good news! Hopefully this explains everthing and the worst is over. On to the road of recovery.

What a lucky dog she is to have found you, Lisa.

I love your vet.
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine....results are in!! - 04/03/13 10:44 AM

So glad you got some answers for your sweet Jazzy girl, Lisa. I hope the probiotic therapy works. I know it did wonders for Cleo.
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine....results are in!! - 04/03/13 04:29 PM

Once again, I will be using these posts for my own education.

I hope the probiotics help Jazzy and get her on the road to being mended.
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine....results are in!! - 04/03/13 05:27 PM

Two thumbs up for your vet and his willingness to listen and work with you towards a solution! May the end of Jazzy's problems be in sight!
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine....results are in!! - 04/05/13 09:05 AM

How is Ms. Jazzy doing today?
Posted by: Shepherds

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine....results are in!! - 04/05/13 06:04 PM

Hope Miss Jazzy is doirng much better, your vet sounds like they are doing a brilliant job and doing everything that they can to try and sort it all out for her.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine....results are in!! - 04/06/13 01:03 PM

I started updating this last night before bed from my phone and fell asleep in the middle of it shocked I'm thankful for the weekend!

Thank you everyone! Yes, I really like this vet, he has definitely earned my respect, and has been a lifesaver.

I have been holding my breath, since tuesday was the last day of her aantibiotics, and she seemed to get worse a bit, and just hoping that she didn't slide downhill real fast.

Digestively she is variable, but holding her own. Now that we are back to work, getting enough probiotics in her away from mealtime is a bit of a challenge. I put back all the supplements that she needed to get her diet balanced (it has not been balanced for a long time frown ), and that did not go well at all, so everything will have to go s l o w. It's possible that the cranberry is a culprit too. Last night though she had a nearly perfect poop , so I jut need to figure out how that happened!

She had a pee accident yesterday as soon as we got to daycare, on their floor. The good news is that they are set up for that. The bad news is that I'm not sure what is going on. She wouldn't pee before we left, so I'm sure that's why she couldn't hold it, but I don't understand why she won't pee sometimes when I know he has to. She's been really lethargic too, but hopefully I will get a better idea after watching her over the weekend.

The cool news, which I was really holding breath about and not wanting to jinx, but three days in a row to work (I had a hort work week), she did NOT tremble on the way in. In fact, she even got in the car and did her happy dance. In the morning, which she never doe, only when I pick her up in the afternoon. If anyone is a Seinfeld fan, think of Elaine's dancing, it's a bit like that crazy

So, the trembling in the morning wa either the gut or the pee thing it seems. She still has anxiety, but nothing like the panic she wa experiencing.

Hopefully the weekend will go well and the pee thing will be a fluke.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/08/13 04:40 PM

An apple a day...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/20304079/
Posted by: Tammi

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/08/13 04:54 PM

That's interesting. Wonder if the apple pectin supplement would be good for dogs.

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa


Lisa, has Jassy had another good poop since the other day? I've been having good success with the L-glutamine 2-2x day (for my bigger dog) and just acidophilus 1-2x day.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/09/13 12:18 PM

She has slowly gone downhill, had to go out multiple times the other night (urinary), I think I got all of 45 minutes of sleep, o I put her back on the flagyl. We have an appt late thi afternoon after the chiropractor.

She is getting 1,000 mg of l-glutamine 2-3 times a day, and a boat load of probiotics. Stools aren't really terrible, but something is making her awfully sick - going to ask if it's the toxins that is doing this. The flagyl starts helping a lot with a single dose, so I'm thinking this I all damage caued by inflammation, including urinary tract.

Saw a study where poor quality protein rapidly increased the germinating of these toxic spores. The question is what about good protein in general, as she I on a high protein diet. It' jut possible, that I need to tweek the diet more. I have ome apple pectin here, going to try some of that, though it alway seem constipating. Some studies have showed positive results with the use of psyllium, but without enough water, that confuses me.

I need to learn more about fiber and diet in relation to this I guess.
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/09/13 12:58 PM

No answers here, but some of these. hugging hugging hugging May Jazz be going in a healing direction with all this, and soon.
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/09/13 01:27 PM

Last time I paid attention to this, some genes for bacterial toxins and antibiotic resistance are actually on a little chromosome ring, separate from the main chromosome. The little ring thing can be transferred from bacterial cell to cell, so the poisons and resistance get shared all through infectious colonies. That means that you really need good treatment to get all the bad bugs out-but you knew that.

I do hope you learn something helpful today, you both need sleep, and Jazz needs to get well, period.

MJ
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/09/13 05:28 PM

Oh my gosh! I am so sorry. teary
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/09/13 05:53 PM

Thinking of you and Jazzy
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/09/13 09:03 PM

Thinking of you and Jazzy. I hope they find out what is causing all this today. frown
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/09/13 11:06 PM

I appreciate the support all, this is going to be a long process, but at least we still have things to try.

The vet and I talked probably for nearly an hour. And as I sit here, I'm not sure I remember any of it shocked

Current plan is to switch off the flagyl, as he is worried about the neuro toxicity of it. Having had two dogs that had problems with this, I really appreciated that he was the one that brought this up. If she tolerates Tylan, we will go with that, for 30 days. He wants to give it long enough to get the bad guys (like you said MJ!!), and also try to calm down some of her inflammation, and then we will start a prolonged taper and pulse program, knock wood.

The big question is why she can't kick this C Perf, where in so many dogs it is a normal part of the flora. I was thinking it was the toxins, but I learned something that kinda blew me away, if you're into this bug stuff.

If you grow C Perf in a petrie dish, and do things that it likes and keep it happy, then it doesn't produce toxins. But if you annoy it (for lack of a better word), it starts producing toxins. So, in dogs where this bacteria lives without problem, this bacteria is pretty happy, not producing toxins. However, in dogs where there are toxins, the immune system is aggravating the bacteria, not recognizing that it really isn't a threat (as opposed to other bacteria that the immune system should go after). How wild is that? Some of these immune systems even start recognizing all bacteria (even the good guys) as a threat as it loses the ability to discern good from bad. It's not at all clear that this is what is going on with Jazz, but my impression is that he thinks this is highly likely.

We talked a fair bit about fiber, he brought it up first. Iffy if it will help, but worth trying, and needs to be added s l o w l y, and different individuals will have different responses. I guess it seems that Gram-positive bacteria (like the clostridia) aren't able to use it as a food source as well as the good bacteria, so it helps crowd out the bad stuff. More soluble fiber than insoluble is thought to be a better fuel source for the good stuff.

Talked about using amoxicillin if the tylan doesn't work, and some other stuff about abx. Talked about food allergies, not likely to be masked by abx use, as it would be with steroids. Talked about steroid use, which he knows would be my last resort. Talked about dogs with allergies having problems with herbal therapies. Talked vaccination stuff a bit - he figures she'll never need another parvo/distemper shot, and who knows about rabies, they are now seeing protection 7 years out (if the law were not a factor). Talked about how every animal is different and many of these disease processes that we talk about have many different origins but similar presentations, but we have crude measurements and we still need trial and error until we find out exactly what is going on, or at least what works. He thinks it's very likely the urinary problem will resolve once the gut is better.

So, I guess the one sentence synopsis is that we treat her similar to a GSD with SIBO, and go slow, and build up along the way.
Posted by: arycrest

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/10/13 12:06 AM

grouphug flowerbasket Lisa & Jazz flowerbasket grouphug

I sure hope they can figure out what's wrong and treat it.
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/10/13 12:42 AM

I was very disturbed to see all of these hugs happening over here because I knew sweet Jazz must have had another setback. I am so sorry, Lisa, this is so incredibly complicated--it reminds me of taking care of Cleo. feelingblue I can imagine how tired and frustrated and sad you must feel that your little Jazzy continues to have such a hard time.

The good part is that you have a vet who sounds very on top of things and is really thinking things through based on Jazz's symptoms and manifestations and is listening to you. That goes a long way in supporting both you and Jazz and I really think he can help you figure this out.

Hang in there--I wish I had something helpful to offer but this is way out of my little league. hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/10/13 02:36 AM

Thank you Gayle, thank you Ruth.

It really does help to have a vet that I trust. Even if he doesn't have all the answers, I think we stand a good chance of getting this figured out.

Speaking of figuring things out, just read this:

Quote:
Enteritis necroticans with midgut necrosis caused by Clostridium perfringens.
Clarke LE, Diekmann-Guiroy B, McNamee W, Java DJ Jr, Weiss SM.
Source

Mercy Catholic Medical Center, Misericordia Division, Philadelphia, Pa.
Abstract

Enteritis necroticans is a necrotizing process manifesting as segmental gangrene of the bowel, triggered by Clostridium perfringens toxins under specific dietary conditions. It is a rare disease in developed countries and is probably underdiagnosed. A case of enteritis necroticans presenting with midgut necrosis with sepsis and hemolysis is reported herein. Bacteriologic culture of blood and peritoneal content revealed C perfringens. Dietary history, including the ingestion of meat together with sweet potatoes, should increase clinical suspicion of enteritis necroticans. Early recognition and timely surgical intervention are required for successful treatment. Clinicians are encouraged to be aware of this clinically fulminant yet rarely recognized surgical entity.


?????????


Slightly different situation, but there might be some similarities. Will be looking into this, have to get my work done for tonight. But perhaps switching to sweet potato is about the worst thing for this.....
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/10/13 03:42 AM

Oh wow Lisa, I am so sorry your beautiful little Jazz had a set back hugging I am confident between you and your fantastic sounding vet, eventually you will figure this all out. I am sending you both all my support and hugging
Posted by: Shepherds

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/10/13 07:59 AM

I'm very much liking the sound of your vet and while there isn't any specific answers there is at least a plan, backed up by sound reasoning as to why you should proceed down the SIBO path.

Might be a bit left of center, but I've had a dog who had severe digestive and small intestine issues (from snake bite and anti venom treatment) and after months and months of issues, I used a Heel digestive kit and then moved onto Sanum remedies - both of which were extremely useful and had their place in his recovery.
Posted by: Tammi

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/10/13 09:14 AM

I think this is a good plan. Curious about your thoughts on tapering and pulsing though. I've not come across anyone that uses Tylan for SIBO doing that. Mostly they follow TAMU's protocol of 30-45 days. How is her B12 level?

I questioned my vet on doing Tylan for my dog but he feels that even though his B12 is low his folate is within normal range so it couldn't possibly be SIBO. not sure I agree with him.


Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
Current plan is to switch off the flagyl, as he is worried about the neuro toxicity of it. Having had two dogs that had problems with this, I really appreciated that he was the one that brought this up. If she tolerates Tylan, we will go with that, for 30 days. He wants to give it long enough to get the bad guys (like you said MJ!!), and also try to calm down some of her inflammation, and then we will start a prolonged taper and pulse program, knock wood.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/10/13 11:27 AM

Regarding the sweet potatoes: " Necrotizing enteritis is caused when the normal trypsin-mediated degradation of beta toxin is impaired by a protein-poor diet or coingestion of foods such as sweet potatoes that contain trypsin inhibitors. " It is said that cooking destroys the inhibitors, but some sites say that ome remains, so I will work on finding a way to decrease them in the diet, and I have added back the digestive enzyme that has the apple pectin.

Shepherds, I have a bunch of Heel remedies here for their IBD prottocl, but I haven't started yet. Do you remember what you used?

Tammi, I brought up the pulsing because I had found a flagyl protocol that I thought looking promising. He said "sure, that's reasonable, but let's do it this way.". With Jazz, you can almost set your clock by the timing of her relapse off the abx, which makes sense for the pulsing, we think.

The Tylan also has immune modulating properties, which should be helpful for her inflaammation.

I really like how flexible this vet is, and how he tapers the treatment for what he's seeing in the individual dog.

I am giving B12. Her anxiety is less if I do, so the test will be skewed.
Posted by: Shepherds

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/10/13 05:29 PM

It was a 3 part kit, consisting of spascupeel, hepeel and mucosa comp. it was a whole ago now, so things might have changed and last year when he had a setback I used Sanum remedies which were also helpful. I also worked on making his system more alkaline, which assisted in digestion and appetite.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/11/13 12:48 AM

Originally Posted By: Tammi
I questioned my vet on doing Tylan for my dog but he feels that even though his B12 is low his folate is within normal range so it couldn't possibly be SIBO. not sure I agree with him.

Treat the dog and not the test????
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/11/13 12:51 AM

Originally Posted By: Shepherds
It was a 3 part kit, consisting of spascupeel, hepeel and mucosa comp. it was a whole ago now, so things might have changed and last year when he had a setback I used Sanum remedies which were also helpful. I also worked on making his system more alkaline, which assisted in digestion and appetite.


Those are different than the ones I have here. I will see how things go, and good to have another option to try. I've never heard of Sanum before, so again, more stuff to look into......

I had to work hard to make Max more alkaline. Just finding something that Jazz tolerates is challenging, but with the long term tylan, at least I will have time now where she will be more stable. It's been a roller coaster with these shorter treatments. The meds that we have been using are more scary long term, but with the change to tylan, at least that will be better for her.
Posted by: Shepherds

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/11/13 06:15 AM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
Originally Posted By: Shepherds
It was a 3 part kit, consisting of spascupeel, hepeel and mucosa comp. it was a whole ago now, so things might have changed and last year when he had a setback I used Sanum remedies which were also helpful. I also worked on making his system more alkaline, which assisted in digestion and appetite.


Those are different than the ones I have here. I will see how things go, and good to have another option to try. I've never heard of Sanum before, so again, more stuff to look into......

I had to work hard to make Max more alkaline. Just finding something that Jazz tolerates is challenging, but with the long term tylan, at least I will have time now where she will be more stable. It's been a roller coaster with these shorter treatments. The meds that we have been using are more scary long term, but with the change to tylan, at least that will be better for her.


I've used the Sanum remedies myself (bleeding ulcer) and they were very very good. Issue resolved very quickly, without having to resort to standard GP protocol of nexium etc, which generally create a whole lot of other issues for me, which is why when Reza had a setback, I used the Sanum remedies on him.

Can also recommend a product called Alkala N (as with Sanum it is a product of Germany). Again used to assist with ensuring system is alkaline. I'm using it with Kobe, just mix a bit of the powder in warm filtered water and syringe down his throat.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/12/13 03:39 AM

Super, thank you!

Jazz seems to be responding to the Tylan and supplements, but will know more in a day or two, and will post then.
Posted by: MSD

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/12/13 08:00 AM

This is awesome news for Jazz, so that she is responding… tears of joy, BIG smiley face.
Fingers and paws crossed it continues.
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/12/13 09:01 AM

Lisa, I am glad Jazzy is responding to the treatment. Very good news. You go Jazzy girl. You can do it! Enough with this pesky crap ...on to perfect health!
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/12/13 12:07 PM

cheers
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/12/13 08:22 PM

groovy A quiet celebration - will pull out the big bands when we hear more!
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, it's always something!! - 04/13/13 03:29 AM

Keeping all paws crossed she continues to improve! It's about time for you both!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/13/13 11:08 PM

I am still quietly holding my breath. One big disadvantage of a dog that goes to daycare, is that I don't get to watch her poop that closely, particularly since she doesn't go "enough".

She has been licking her vulva some today, and went out a couple of times last night, but then settled. Not sure what that means. She appears to be tolerating the tylan well, I hope that it's doing the trick. If the bladder inflammation is from too much liquid being pulled into the gut, it may take awhile.

I am spending a lot of time learning about C Perf and its toxins. Not all strains of C Perf can emit toxins, which is why they PCR test the bacteria for the gene that can emit the toxin. After they identify that the strain is capable of doing that, then they test for the toxin. While many strains produce the enterotoxin, the additional toxins that it produces depend on the strain - no clue what strains or other toxins might be present in Jazz.

I haven't found much information about long term treatment for this online or on other forums, so I'll document what I do here. Not sure if I should start a new thread or not.

Someone showed me this, related to long term treatment with tylosin frown
Quote:
Although no adverse effects during tylosin treatment have been reported, efforts should be made to reduce the use of tylosin. This is because our recently conducted studies have indicated that tylosin causes wide resistance to antibiotics in the intestine (unpublished results). Certain probiotic lactic acid bacteria (LAB) have been shown to be effective in the prevention and treatment of a variety of diarrheal disorders in humans and in experimental mouse models. Hopefully in the future a probiotic LAB can be used instead of tylosin to treat or prevent chronic diarrhea in dogs with TRD.

http://www.vetmed.helsinki.fi/klel/tylosiini/tylosin.htm



Just found this earlier tonight....
Quote:
curcumin exhibited strong and moderate growth inhibition against C. perfringens at 2 and 1 mg/disk, respectively, and weak growth inhibition against E. coli at 1 mg/disk.

http://hero.epa.gov/index.cfm?action=reference.details&reference_id=1146337


If all goes well this week, I will start the curcumin next week, or mid-week if everything is really good. Starting tonight I'm putting back many of the supplements she needs for balance of her diet.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/14/13 02:33 AM

I don't really understand a lot of this but I hope she tolerates her supplements. And I also wanted to say how lucky Jazz is to have you hugging
Posted by: Barb E

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/14/13 07:14 PM

What Bianca said!
hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/14/13 08:22 PM

Thanks, and thanks !

smile
Posted by: Shepherds

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/15/13 05:57 AM

What Bianca and Barb E said...some of it makes sense...the rest of it the brain just goes nah..

Hope Jazz had a good day today.
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/15/13 08:08 AM

It hurts that Jazz may be starring in some case report 'the success of XYZ in treating idiopathic QRS' by Lisa T and Dr. Vet. Jazz should be famous as that little sprite climbing after squirrels.

Anyway, more crossedfingers that your carefully tweaked regimen works for Jazzy.

Mary Jane
Posted by: Hatterasser

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/15/13 12:56 PM

It is amazing when you see pictures of her how healthy and active she looks. Hard to believe she has such a problem. But here's hoping the new regimen works for her. I realize that you'll have to tweak it here and there but I know you can do it if anyone can.

Fingers crossed for Jazz............
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/16/13 01:03 PM

She does great when she's on antibiotics frown

She's pretty stable right now. Shaking in the morning and other times is greatly diminished, but not yet entirely gone. All those months I thought it was all anxiety frown at least we're on the right track now.

I ordered some different probiotics that I will add into the rotation. The saccharomyces boulardii I was using contained MOS, which, like d-mannose, inhibits adherence of bad bacteria. Unfortionally, I also think it does the ame for good bacteria. Still using the mercola enzymes, and I have a renew life product he seems to do well on. Those two alone should work for a normal dog!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/16/13 09:25 PM

Had an appt with the holistic vet today and let her know what was going on. We agreed to stay away from the herbals which she seem sensitive to, but we are going to try a couple canine Standard Processes products - the immune support and the GI enteric upport. I am to work on increasing her vegetable portion of the diet to something closer to what I used to feed Indy, and I'm also continuing the Thorne Gaba for her SA. She estimates Jaazz hould be off abx and relatively stable by July, which is close to my estimate, if all goes well. Hope so!
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/17/13 05:04 AM

Keeping all paws and fingers crossed here for your sweet girl. July seems like such a long way away frown hugging
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/20/13 04:24 AM

Lisa how is Jazzy doing with her new regime?
Posted by: SeanRescueMom

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/20/13 09:47 AM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
She does great when she's on antibiotics frown


It's like a double edge sword, isn't it? Always a catch 22 for Sean and it sounds like for Jazz too.
Been away from the board due to work but just wanted you to know I'm thinking of you. hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/20/13 02:12 PM

Thank you SRM. I know, I had to do this with Max, but definitely hoping we can get jazz more stable.

Thanks for checking in bianca. I'm not sure if part of this isn't because the abx now have fully kicked in, but the new supplements seem to be working great. She feels good. She ran up to the daycare door yesterday and barked for it to be opened and even pawed at it. When she comes home, after a long hard day at daycare smile , she still wants to do a bit of zoomies in the yard these last two days.

I'm still fiddling with the diet, but she seems a lot happier and energetic, so far. Lol, that may be a bit of a cure however - I might not be able to keep up with her.
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/20/13 02:55 PM

I'm glad to hear that Jazzy is feeling better. That must really make you feel good to see her zooming around and being her sassy little self. grin
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/20/13 03:11 PM

Thanks Ruth! Yes, she now has two speeds, awake (and fast), and asleep. I think I'm in trouble crazy
Posted by: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/20/13 05:13 PM

Lisa my first GSD had two Speeds "All Out" and "dead asleep". As a pup I swear he would fall asleep running to his sleeping spot. He would hit that and be out like a light, not even 10 seconds of wiggling, just thump and out. It did moderate some as he got older around 5ish.

It can be a great amount of fun.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/20/13 06:13 PM

Yep, that's how she is! Does make me smile - have to imagine it might be harder in a GSD smile
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/20/13 06:22 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
.....she seems a lot happier and energetic..... I might not be able to keep up with her.


Now that's a great GREAT problem to have.

If her ABX haven't fully kicked in and she's orbiting on supplements alone, watch out for Jazmine when really healthy.

crossedfingers

thanks for the hopeful update,

MJ
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/20/13 10:15 PM

It is a GREAT problem to have smile

I so hope that this goes as planned, she is such a different dog when he is feeling better. When she's ill, you can't really tell other than some lethargy (ignoring stool and urinary issues), but when she feels better, it's just so obvious.

The flyball people flaked and disappeared for about a month, but they are ready to start up their beginning class. Now that he is feeling better, the timing sounds better.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/21/13 05:22 AM

I am so happy to read this! Yah, Jazz is feeling good! Now we just need video of her zoomies!!!! smile
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/21/13 08:46 AM

All good news! Sounds like there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/23/13 02:18 PM

I am holding my breath to see how the first taper of the abx goes. In two weeks we drop to once a day.

Bianca, I have tried to get video, but she's so darn fast, I end up getting aa bunch of grass....
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/25/13 01:29 AM

Her body shape has been changing again, and I think that's the reduction from sweet potato to more veggies. It looks better.

She is having increasing shivers, occassionally at night waiting for dinner, and today when he got in the car before we came home. Mornings are back to not so good.

Just can't figure it out if it's anxiety or related to all this stuff. I am going to hold off on her supplements for a few days and see if that makes a difference. She's so hyped up, maybe it's just moving things in her too fast, she's even been panting some.

Overall still a ton better though. Just wish I knew what is related and what isn't.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/25/13 03:56 AM

I know that if anyone can figure this out, it is you hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/26/13 11:28 AM

Thanks Bianca...

I'm wondering if it's the tylan: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/8372057/
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/26/13 12:38 PM

I know 100% that you are proceeding systematically through eliminating and then adding back what Jazz ingests. It's just the very devil to have to 'experiment' on your little girl.

I'd be glad to send you lots of far less adorable mice but there's no way that they can reproduce the beauty and challenge of your Jazmine.

Like Bianca, I'm sure you'll find out what's best for her.

MJ
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/26/13 01:08 PM

AAck, mice!

Jazz thanks you kindly for your words wub

I have to admit, this is VERY frustrating. She is having the worst panic attacks now than she has ever had. This makes no sense. Unless it is a separate issue, which might be what this is pointing to.

I think that we are at week 3 of the tylan twice a day. At week 4, we reduce to once a day. That will also be easier to get probiotics in her. I am having trouble getting things done at night, I've been getting home so late recently, and we both fall asleep on the couch for awhile before getting back to work.

Something will work, eventually, I'm sure.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/28/13 02:38 AM

I think thi is related: http://www.foodsafetynews.com/2012/08/cl...ric-inpatients/

I was thinking of the anxiety firt, but then maybe the slow intestines she has, seemingly related to the weak ab muscles, hernias, etc. Just trying to figure this out.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/28/13 03:18 AM

Wow that is scary stuff frown I guess the hard part is how to know if your Jazzy is just anxious for no health related reason frown hugging Hoping your work load decreases soon so you can both have more time hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 04/28/13 02:37 PM

It is hard, yes! I'm not sure which to address and how frown

Putting this link here for afe keeping. Sounds like his description of the C. perf is epretty much how we are treating it. I've had a number of folks make dismisssive comments, how all dogs carry this and if they get it they get better quickly. Yeah, wih that were the case!
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/13/13 07:20 PM

Any news????
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/14/13 12:39 AM

Thanks for checking up on us m&j!

We've been having nothing but trouble, though eem to have stablized right now.

Her digestion was okay, but not great, until I just recently added NOW brand boswellia and turmeric. That has helped a lot.

The bad part is, starting 8 days after her procedure (which would be 3 days post antibiotic again), she started with increased anxiety. It has escalated into very very bad state. This is the stuff that would go away when she was on cipro.

By the time we got to the month point (last tuesday), to taper the tylan, her anxiety in the morning was borderline dangerous, and getting worse. There was increased anxiety at other times too. Included during these attacks is shaking, and I think it would aactually be called tremors. Luckily the boswellia/turmeric seems to have halted further escalation.

IMS (internal medicine specialist) wants her to see a neurologist, though he says it's till possible that this is inflammation in the colon.

As I'm reading, I understand now why, something similar to little white shaker dog syndrome.
http://www.malteseonly.com/shakerdog.html
https://www.addl.purdue.edu/newsletters/2004/spring/tremors.htm
If her dna test is to believed, she is 1/4 maltese (as well as 1/4 dachshund).

Tomorrow I am having standard bloodwork run. Urinalysis last week showed some protein in the urine now, and the crystals are probably from the very high specific gravity.

I'm worried about my girl frown
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/14/13 03:56 AM

Oh Lisa hugging I am so sorry poor Jazz is still not at 100% hugging
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/14/13 08:09 AM

Shoooot, not seeing posts about Jazzy I was hoping that no news was good news. The improvement with ABX is bound to mean something, but I sure don't know what-you've already told us several possibilities.

This is so painful and so frustrating. Jazz is a young, mostly healthy dog with the world's best care. Why is she plagued with this?

One of the articles about white shaker dogs did mention treatment-was it valium? Valium was used like ketchup for a while, as I recall.

I'm babbling. Sending many best wishes for you both to feel better.
Posted by: Barb E

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/14/13 09:12 AM

Mary Jane said it very well so I'm just going to add some huggings
Posted by: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/14/13 09:33 AM

Lisa I am so sorry. Have you tried something like UTI Free I know Ruth has another product she likes for this issue. Don't crystals also form from the PH balance being out of balance?

http://www.jdoqocy.com/click-3825726-10641517 (Affiliate Link)

Sorry that I am not much help other than to let you know that I am following you and Jazzy.
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/14/13 11:44 AM

Aw. frown You must be so worried about her. hugging

UTI free is the one I like the best although if it's a chronic problem I also like to use a cranberry supplement like Solid Gold's Berry Blend.

I really hope you find something that works for her.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/14/13 12:06 PM

Thanks you guys, it's very frustrating, and scary what lies ahead for her.

Val, yes, her urine Ph suddenly is very alkaline, and I'm not sure why exactly.

I was thinking about the UTI products, but apparently there is no sign of urinary infection. Not one, not ever.

MJ, babbling appreciated. Ketchup, she loves ketchup...

I wish I knew why she was cursed by whatever this is. Whatever it is, she had it since she came - I thought the shivering was fear, or cold, and later wondered if it was from the hernias.

I guess we'll see what the bloodwork says. Antibiotics can have actions other than killing bugs, as in anti-inflammatory action, so the vet isn't jumping onto the infection thing immediately. If there is infection, please let omething show in her bloodwork today!

I recall having thi same quandry with Indy and Max with the vets. Very frustrating.
Posted by: Natalie559

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/14/13 01:43 PM

If anyone can get this figured out it is you Lisa. Hang in there.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/14/13 03:07 PM

Thank you natalie! I hope so, not so sure sometimes.

Bee sting, round two, on the way to get her blood drawn. That's what happens when she scuffs her paws after pee'ing: http://germanshepherdhome.net/forum/ubbt...nces#Post242808
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/14/13 05:55 PM

Sorry to hear about the shaking. Sigh.

What are they saying about the protein in the urine? Get the UP/C number!
It can be caused by inflammation. Is Jazz on fish oil?

I can't wait for your results to be in. I kind of hope something shows up so it can be dealt with. Know what I mean?
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/14/13 06:06 PM

I am so sorry - I, too was thinking she must be doing pretty good lately.

This is getting very scary. hugging
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/14/13 06:07 PM

Are you going to see the neurologist? Or one step at a time?
You guys have certainly been through the wringer..........
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/14/13 07:16 PM

This *is* getting scary Bonnie frown

m&j, we were going to run the microalbuminaria test (similar to c/p test), but he said that it wouldn't change clinically what we would do. So I'm going to talk to him about some other targeted testing. We are thinking that it's all about inflammation.....so that's consistent with what you said.

I scheduled the neuro consult for next Tuesday. I have to resist the urge to tinker before then. Hopefully will have the bloodwork by the end of tomorrow night.
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/14/13 07:24 PM

I wonder if Traumeel would help. Isn't that for inflammation? Or just muscle inflammation.

I know the fish oil help with Rudy's kidney inflammation, or whatever was causing the protein in his urine. Enalapril helped, too.

What does Sabine have to say?

I want answers for you and Jazz!!!!!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/14/13 07:35 PM

Funny you say that about Traumeel - I started it a bit last week, it's part of an IBD protocol. Would be nice if it's helping! Oddly enough, she likes the traumeel, but the one that is supposed to help with healing the mucous membranes (like the wallls of the intestines), she spits out - seems like the same darn tablet. Weird.

Fish oil is iffy with her, seems to mess up her digestion, and it's a bit immune suppressive, so I've been worried with possible infection. But I'm going to have to get on this inflammation after our appt next Tuesday.

I haven't been working with Sabine, since nothing has been working, and I'm just limping along, trying to get find things that Jazz can tolerate. As an example, at my request, Sabine had worked on a sweet potato and meat diet, and it turns out that's a risk factor for the C Perf (who knew? it's very bizarre), and I've been trying to slowly try things that Jazz can tolerate before I have the diet rebalanced. I didn't even get to use any of the consult time with Sabine because of all the issues that Jazz was having, so it's not really cost efficient right now, until we get a better idea of what is going on.

We got inflammation in the colon, and in the bladder, and heck, maybe the kidneys. If there is this "shaker syndrome", that might mean inflammation in the CNS. So, what the heck is causing all of this?
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/14/13 08:11 PM

I'm willing to bet the neurologist is going to play a part in diagnosing the cause of all the inflammation.

I'm hoping! You must be on your last nerve. Tuesday can't come soon enough.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/14/13 08:24 PM

Uh, yeah, I've been pretty snippy lately. It's hard when nothing works the way that it should, in spite of doing all the things it seems we should be doing.

They will want to try drug trials. I'm not sure if I'm ready for that, I need to consult with my homeopathic vet I think, but I need to schedule that, and it's a couple hour drive, and my first week off of school I have jury duty. Yikes!
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/14/13 08:44 PM

It's hell. Sigh. Poor little thing has no idea what's going on, either. Hope she's giving you lots of kisses and somehow we get to the bottom of this.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/15/13 03:58 AM

hugging hugging When do the results from the bloods come back?
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/15/13 06:17 PM

Results back yet???
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/16/13 04:42 AM

Blood results today, nothing clear, of course.

Bun is increasing, creatinine stable, amylase decreasing, weird shift in the blood cells to low neutrophils, high lymphocytes, though the absolute values are the same. Basophils are still there, much about half as much as last time.

Guess we'll see what happens next week.
Posted by: Shepherds

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/16/13 09:25 AM

Sorry to hear Jazz is not doing well....I can fully appreciate how it must be doing your head in....trying everything, but constantly running into brick walls.

I don't know what any of the blood results mean, but just pray you find something conclusive that you can work with soon.
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/16/13 04:54 PM

.......and now we all wait for Tuesday. Sigh.
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/16/13 04:57 PM

This is all so far above my head, I don't really follow all the medical stuff too well since it is all so far beyond my experience, but I wanted to let you know Lisa, that I am following this and still hopeful that you and your doctors can get things straightened out for Miss Jazzy. At the very least, I hope you can find some kind of equilibrium that you can both live with. hugging
Posted by: Barb E

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/16/13 09:16 PM

Originally Posted By: Good_Karma
This is all so far above my head, I don't really follow all the medical stuff too well since it is all so far beyond my experience, but I wanted to let you know Lisa, that I am following this and still hopeful that you and your doctors can get things straightened out for Miss Jazzy. At the very least, I hope you can find some kind of equilibrium that you can both live with. hugging


This
hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/17/13 02:20 AM

Thank you, it's very difficult to watch what happens to her and not know what it is. Thi morning she could only eat 1/2 her breakfast before the tremors stopped her. I have finals week to get through next week, maybe jury duty the following week, and then hopefully ome better sleep hours and time at home will help her.

I don't really expect to have answer from the neuro, but a box to check off and get some input, on the off chance that she can provide some insight. I am not sure I will want to try drug trials right away, ince any drug we try will be a bit scary I suspect. I'm hoping I can get to my homeopathic vet, but jury duty is messing me up, she is several hours away, and hasn't yet met Jazz, so we can't yet consult by phone.

I sometimes wonder if this is related to her hernias that are supposedly fixed, but don't seem like it to me.

Moving forward I guess.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/17/13 03:12 AM

Damn, I was hoping the bloods would at least prove/dissprove something. Can you get out of jury duty?
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/17/13 04:36 AM

I wish I could get out of jury duty, but I have already postponed it. I'm hoping that being the short week after Memorial Day, there won't be much activity.
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/17/13 08:26 AM

I hope it's like jury duty here. In the morning you call in to see if they need you that day. Even if they ask you to come in, if you're not chosen, you are often dismissed by noon. If you could only arrange to have them ask you about tick diseases, I'm sure you would be dismissed as an advocate.

Truly, I read about Jazz here and just want so much for things to be all right. Not much help, but it is true.

MJ
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/17/13 08:58 AM

Lisa, I honestly don't know what to say but wanted to let you know that I am thinking about you and Jazzy and hoping for a positive turn-around. Continuously sending wishes for perfect health for Ms Jazzy.

hugging
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/17/13 03:09 PM

How the heck can something be so wrong, yet not show up on the diagnostics????

I'm still hopeful for the neurologist. Someone HAS to be able to put the whole picture together and tell you what you're dealing with.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/18/13 02:02 AM

I think that we have the wrong antibiotic. Thinking about thi further, I think that we have the wrong abx, and our taper program isn't going to work if at full dose it can't keep the symptom from getting worse.

Something needs to be done asap, he is afraid to eat in the mornings and runs from food with her tail tucked. I will tinker some this weekend so I can report back to the IMS mext week.

There may be a neuro problem. But I think she is aalso having problems from either colititis or the C Perf or something in the gut. I thought it miught have been the tylan, but it' not getting better with the reduction to once a day.
Posted by: arycrest

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/18/13 03:33 AM

Thinking about you and Jazz ... sure hope you can figure out a solution to her problems!!!
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/18/13 05:25 AM

hugging This is all just so darn unfair frown
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/18/13 08:31 AM

Is Jazz getting enough to eat? I guess I'm seizing on a small point-but she's too tiny and insufficient food will screw up the dosages of everything.

My dear heaven this is a nightmare.

I truly hope Lisa and the vets can find the right treatment for Jazz.

take care,

MJ
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/18/13 12:31 PM

It is not fair frown

And I'm not able to feed her the nutrients that she should be having frown frown

Trying different abx for the weekend.
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/18/13 02:21 PM

This is so unfair. So awful. I am so very sorry Lisa. I don't know what to say. I so feel for you and sweet little Jazzy. hugging
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/18/13 07:31 PM

I sure wish a magic pill could be found to help Miss Jazzy. hugging

This is all so far above my knowledge I can't even make an intelligent comment about her health. But I sure have you both on my mind and hope it gets better for you soon.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/19/13 12:22 PM

Thank you Elvi and Bonnie!

A magic pill would be nice!

There are 3 differnent antibiotics that helped her immensely, and on day 3 after finishing each, she starting getting worse again. I've read several C. Difficile patients with this experience. So maybe I haven't given up on the C Perf angle.

3 days after the clavamox, last march, she started getting worse, while on the tylan and continued to get worse. I thought it might be a reaction to the tylan, but now I think I was wrong.

Logic seems to dictate that we need to use what works to do the taper with.

Her inappropriate urinary issues seem to be mostly resolved, so I hope that means removing that strip of tissue along the vaginal wall worked and it has not grown back. She's got the funky urinalysis results, but that showed something different than before.

I am not sure we are ready to consult with the neuro, but she has weird enough other issues, aand I really do trust this IMS's instincts, so I'm inclined to keep the appointment. I have switched the abx this weekend away from tylan, and expect her to feel better soon, and then we start all over with the taper plans, barring anything else cropping up.
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/19/13 12:26 PM

[quote=MaxaLisa, and expect her to feel better soon, and then we start all over with the taper plans, barring anything else cropping up. [/quote]

Gosh, I sure hope not!!! Enough of this!! Time for you two to get a major break.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/19/13 02:56 PM

I second that!
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/20/13 03:36 AM

I third this!
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/20/13 08:25 PM

Good luck tomorrow. grouphug
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/21/13 08:55 PM

How did it go?
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/22/13 01:01 AM

Thanks for keeping tabs on us!!

The appointment was a big waste of time and money. I was pretty sure that this wasn't going to yield answers, but it also just further reminded me of the limitations of Western medicine, in addition to the dogmatic thinking that many are indoctrinated into. One thing I do like about the IMS (as opposed to this neuro) is that he has a pretty open mind.

She did recommend a behaviourist over at UC Davis, consults start at $300, and it's a long process, blah, blah, blah.....which would be a good idea if I thought that the anxiety really was all behavioural. This is her gut, and whatever is causing protein in her urine, concentrated urine, crystals, and also the abnormalities we're seeing on the bloodwork. Also whatever is causing her inability to keep the C Perf in check on its own.

We also had an appt with the holistic vet today, and are trying a new herbal for her digestion, particularly to give in the morning to see if that relieves some discomfort which may increase her anxiety.

There is a significant amount of gut inflammation that can be felt externally when she has no flagyl, so that will be the focus of trying to get her better.

We continue on!
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/22/13 04:37 AM

I'm sorry that the first appointment went like that but pleased that the holistic vet has given you another option. Keeping everything crossed that this is the beginning of a happy, healthy Jazz hugging
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/22/13 08:06 AM

There are gut neurological conditions, so it made a lot of sense for the IMS to refer you. I'm really sorry that the neurologist was unable or unwilling to think through Jazz' condition. That morning anxiety must be terribly painful, so if it can be alleviated, it will be a big deal.

Do you mind repeating whether Jazz has elevated IgA? I'm into IgA not for the GSD connection but, as you know, because it's active for gut and genital infections.

We all hope that things start looking up

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa



MJ
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/22/13 09:14 AM

It's so much harder not to have any answers..yet, there is evidence that something is wrong. Feels like walking around in a dark room desperately trying to find the light switch. This may be totally ridiculous, so forgive me for my ignorance, but what if you discontinue all supplements and meds....give it two weeks for everything to clear her system and see what happens? Again, this is probably a ridiculous suggestion.

The reason why I am suggesting this is that some of her symptoms are similar to what I experienced which started with a UTI. I took Cipro but when the prescribed allotment was gone, the symptoms were still the same and the urinalysis showed the protein, etc..plus I was shaking as well uncontrollably. The urinalysis results showed that it was not a bladder/kidney infection. It was the freakiest thing. They ran all sorts of tests including inside and outside ultrasounds and could not find anything wrong. I loaded up on supplements per advise of my naturalist doctor during that time and it got worse. When I discontinued the Cipro it continued getting worse to the point where I was in so much pain..especially at night and shaking all night long. I realized that the doctors were of no help (in this case) and I decided to discontinue everything.

I can't say that I noticed getting better immediately...it took at least a month when I noticed some difference. It took a year for all the symptoms to completely clear. Then I started adding some supplements again such as Probiotics and Enzymes but very moderately. I am fine now. I just can't help to see similarities here but I may be wrong. I hope my comment doesn't offend. I am just trying to help. Hugs.
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/22/13 02:04 PM

OK, so let's go with the holistic vet's plan........let's let him/her work their magic to get that gut inflammation down.
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/22/13 08:19 PM

Lisa - have you ever considered cholodin for Jazzy? It seems to help older dogs by giving them natural 'things' their bodies no longer produce, or do not produce enough.

I am curious if maybe there is something Jazzy's body is not giving her that it should.

I am so uneducated on these high level health matters, but thinking on my level - would it be worth a try?

If you think it might I can send you a few to try on her.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/23/13 05:04 AM

Originally Posted By: LMS
It's so much harder not to have any answers..yet, there is evidence that something is wrong. Feels like walking around in a dark room desperately trying to find the light switch. This may be totally ridiculous, so forgive me for my ignorance, but what if you discontinue all supplements and meds....give it two weeks for everything to clear her system and see what happens? Again, this is probably a ridiculous suggestion.

The reason why I am suggesting this is that some of her symptoms are similar to what I experienced which started with a UTI. I took Cipro but when the prescribed allotment was gone, the symptoms were still the same and the urinalysis showed the protein, etc..plus I was shaking as well uncontrollably. The urinalysis results showed that it was not a bladder/kidney infection. It was the freakiest thing. They ran all sorts of tests including inside and outside ultrasounds and could not find anything wrong. I loaded up on supplements per advise of my naturalist doctor during that time and it got worse. When I discontinued the Cipro it continued getting worse to the point where I was in so much pain..especially at night and shaking all night long. I realized that the doctors were of no help (in this case) and I decided to discontinue everything.

I can't say that I noticed getting better immediately...it took at least a month when I noticed some difference. It took a year for all the symptoms to completely clear. Then I started adding some supplements again such as Probiotics and Enzymes but very moderately. I am fine now. I just can't help to see similarities here but I may be wrong. I hope my comment doesn't offend. I am just trying to help. Hugs.

Elvi, no offense at all! It sounds amazingly similar.

The problem here is that after a couple of months, she continues to decine, and bloodwork only gets worse frown if the C Perf doesn't get under control, I could lose her to HGE easily. I am not sure if the tremors and the similar thing you describe are related to that or not.

Very very weird though. Hopefully soon-ish, by july, she will be off of abx.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/23/13 05:06 AM

Originally Posted By: PositiveDog
Lisa - have you ever considered cholodin for Jazzy? It seems to help older dogs by giving them natural 'things' their bodies no longer produce, or do not produce enough.

I am curious if maybe there is something Jazzy's body is not giving her that it should.

I am so uneducated on these high level health matters, but thinking on my level - would it be worth a try?

If you think it might I can send you a few to try on her.


Bonnie, I too have wondered if there is some deficiency.

Did we ever figure out what's in the cholodin?
Posted by: Woodreb

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/23/13 08:55 AM

Active Ingredient(s)

CHOLODIN® contains: Phosphatidylcholine (from soy lecithin), choline (as chloride), dl-methionine, inositol, zinc (as oxide), niacinamide, vitamin E, thiamine (mononitrate), riboflavin, pyridoxine (HCl), selenium (sodium selenite), vitamin B12 (cobalamin concentrate), and dexpanthenol. Formulated with a flavor base.

From this webiste
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/23/13 10:03 AM

Lisa - in one of Skye's pages I added a lengthy list of the ingredients, as posted above, and their purpose.

In the mean time, here is a really good page with info about the ingredients.

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/entirelypets/cholodininfo.html

And from that link:

Known metabolic functions of some of the components present in CHOLODIN.

Choline:

Dietary factor in preventing fatty liver syndrome

Methyl (CH3) donor for synthesis of many important biological and metabolic compounds.

Precursor of acetylcholine

Component of phosphatidylcholine, a major component of the plasma membrane of mammalian cells

Phospatidylcholine (Lecithin):

Comprises 10% to 50% of plasma membrane of all mammalian cells

Metabolism yields choline for acetylcholine formation

Component of important receptors on cell membrane

Methionine:

Major methyl donor in many biochemical reactions, including synthesis of choline and epinephrine

Important in the inactivation of the neurotransmitters serotonin and the catecholamins

A methionine deficiency interferes with the growth process

Inositol:

Physiological role resembles choline

Present as phosphatidylinositol - a phospholipid of cell membranes and plasma lipoproteins

Vitamin B12:

Important in normal DNA replication

Deficiency results in irreversible damage to the nervous system, including progressive swelling of myelinated neurons, demyelination and cell death in the spinal column and cerebral cortex.

Thiamine:

Essential in two major enzymes in carbohydrate metabolism

Also has a unique role in the function of all excitable cell membranes

Riboflavin:

Functions directly as one of two major enzymes in carbohydrate metabolism

Pyridoxine:

Essential coenzyme in metabolic transformations of amino acids

Deficiency results in abnormalities of the skin, nervous system and erythopoiesis

Seizures due to deficiency may be due to the lowering of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA)

Niacinamide:

Essential coenzyme in protein metabolism

Deficiency results is abnormalities of skin, nervous system and intestinal tract

Pantothenic Acid:

Coenzyme A us the physiologically active form of pantothenol

Essential in the metabolism of carbohydrates and fats

CHOLODIN also contains Selenium, Vitamin E and Zinc.


Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/23/13 12:09 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa


The problem here is that after a couple of months, she continues to decine, and bloodwork only gets worse frown if the C Perf doesn't get under control, I could lose her to HGE easily. I am not sure if the tremors and the similar thing you describe are related to that or not.


Gosh, this is so bizarre. We are all scratching our heads here. Poor Jazzy and you Lisa....my goodness...the emotional drain because of this...You deserve a mega blessing once all this has resolved itself. My goodness.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/23/13 03:25 PM

Thank you Elvi, I am trying to get some of the abx replaced by other more natural things, and will try to speed up the process. Have to focus on what is working, not what we hope will work....

Bonnie, I guess I was thinking of the flavoring, worried about her gut, and hate that they won't share all the ingredients. Thanks for all of that, I tried to do a quick search on my phone, but it wasn't very thorough I guess.

Johanna, thanks for the link and active ingredients!

How long before you noticed a difference? If the new herbal doesn't work wonders, I think this is a logical thing to try. She is starting Six Gentlemen, which is really common in TCM, Max did pretty well on it.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/27/13 03:13 AM

Lisa, how is Jazzy doing now?
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/27/13 02:54 PM

Thank you for aking bianca!

She I doing much better. With the new herbal, and she's on amoxicillin with flagyl pulsed, he's doing very well, devouring both her meals. The meals got better about 3 day into the new protocol (the herbal doe help).

I quickly backed off the flagyl, and am not sure what to do about the amoxi. The IMS had talked about uing the amoxi, but went with tylan first, because I stays in the gut more than amoxi. Either this has a more systemic component, or the tylan was getting at the inflammation.

She han't been to day care since Wed, so I don't know about the tremors. She had ome at home the other day, and some in the car on thursday. Will be really interesting to see tomorrow.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/27/13 03:36 PM

Ugh, I really need to proof for those missing s's. Sorry!
Posted by: JakodaCD OA

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/27/13 06:38 PM

so hopefully both our mystery dogs are going forward vs backwards:)

Hugs to that cute little girl,,and hey I read your last post perfectly LOL
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/27/13 09:03 PM

Lisa, I am glad Jazzy is doing better. Hopefully, this will be a continuous step into the right direction as far as recovery.

I hope you two had a great Memorial Day.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/27/13 09:47 PM

Thank you Elvi! We had a work weekend, and she is SOOOOOO bored because we've been home mostly, and no daycare. I think I am too boring for her now laugh

Diane, funny how you can get used to reading sentences with no s's after awhile rofl
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/28/13 02:58 AM

Yep I can read your post(S) perfectly well too laugh

So glad she is heading in the right direction hugging
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/28/13 07:49 AM

Now we know why you spelled Jazmine with a 'z'.

Jazz' trend does sound better, you're working out this mystery! crossedfingers
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 05/28/13 02:01 PM

Originally Posted By: bianca
Yep I can read your post(S) perfectly well too laugh

That's funny how that works!

Yep, mystery girl. Now that I'll have some more time, maybe I'll be able to rehab her gut better. Not sure what I'm doing at this point crazy
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/08/13 08:09 PM

Jazzy still doing well??
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/08/13 08:57 PM

m&j, what timing! I was just thinking of posting an update.

We just had a checkup with the IMS (internal medicine specialist) on Thursday. I don't know how I end up with these dogs, but we are essentially in a "trial and error" stage of treatment, and thankfully I have a vet that has pretty good intuition and lots of experience, and handles me well. I am so impressed with this guy.....

I had put her on amoxicillin and flagyl (twice a day for 3 days, once a day for 3 days, now once every other day), and later added some st. john's wort to help with the tremors that have remained. He wants to stick with the amoxi, and get her tapered off the flagyl because he will not use that drug long term because of its neuro risk. He even gave me a script for the amoxi without even trying to get me to buy there (I was breaking up 250mg capsules and dividing them into two separate capsules for her - very time consuming!). He says that she may be on amoxi 2-6 months, and we have to accept that if she gets a different infection, we will not be able to use this drug because of resistance.

I mentioned that it was time to run her annual tick titers, and you can imagine my surprise when he knew about protatek labs. The vet clinic is one of the leading referral centers in the area, associated with antech labs, and they use protatek for all their tick titers. How impressive is that? Anyway, he helped me pick out what to test for in this area, and we are going to add toxoplasma and neospora to the panel, since they affect the nervous system. (I am getting blood drawn for that next week and will send out the blood myself to save costs - I use my old vet for that, just more of a social visit to say hi, since she's only there twice a month now.)

I have an appt with the homeopathic vet on the 28th of this month. It's about a 2 hour drive, and then we'll consult by phone. She will help me change Jazz constitutionally so that Jazz can better fight some of this on her own. This vet worked wonders with Indy, so I'm hoping to repeat this for Jazz.

I did ask him about the protein in the urine. He's thinking that this is a product of inflammation, from whatever her issue is (issues?). He is most worried about the impact of continued inflammation on the kidneys, since the kidneys have to filter the by-products of this inflammation (immune complexes - Indy had this with her lyme vaccine disease). I forgot to ask about when he wants a follow up u/a, but I will be in contact with him.

I talked with the IMS for a long time, and we talked about a lot of stuff. He hasn't ruled out a muscle or nerve condition, or even an endocrine condition, like a pre-addison's issue of some sort. There may also be more things in her that are anatomically incorrect, similar to those inguinal hernias and the remnant tissue in the vagina. I sure would like to know more about her parents, how she became such a mess.....you'd think she was a puppy mill dog, or at the very least from a BYB. She is such a great dog, I hate to see her go through all of this.


While she's on an abx that she responds well to, she does pretty okay. She's happy, though I'm sure often has a tummy ache, and is frequently very fatigued. I had taken a bunch of things out of her diet, but I am adding them back slowly, since taking them out really didn't help. What helps is the abx.

Sorry so many words!! Thank you for checking up on her, she is such a little stinker when she's feeling good smile
Posted by: SeanRescueMom

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/08/13 10:44 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
While she's on an abx that she responds well to, she does pretty okay. She's happy, though I'm sure often has a tummy ache, and is frequently very fatigued. I had taken a bunch of things out of her diet, but I am adding them back slowly, since taking them out really didn't help. What helps is the abx.


Lisa, I'm sorry that Jazz has been going through so much but thankful that she found you to care and love her. hug I sincerely hope she feels better soon.
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/08/13 11:32 PM

Well, it's not been an easy path for you but Jazz sure found the right home.

I am glad you have a good specialist to work with and hope you are moving towards better health!
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/09/13 05:09 AM

I don't know how you found your sweet girl but you certainly did for a reason hugging hugging
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/09/13 08:35 AM

I am glad Jazzy has you, although I know she has been both a joy and a worry to you.

It will be interesting to hear what her tests show when they come back. Actually, I am hoping for something easily treatable, rather than no unusual results at all.

Have a good summer, Jazz! fetch
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/09/13 11:17 AM

Tell Jazz she's getting tons of concern and support from her cyber-Aunts. It's really instructive to read about your discussions with her IMS, I'm just waiting impatiently for the magic diagnosis at the end.

I see your point about some anatomical problem. It just sounds like something Jazmine came with, along with her charm and verve and sesame coat.

Her consult at the end of the month also sounds really good. Lots of these crossedfingers that you both feel better soon.

Mary Jane
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/09/13 02:03 PM

Did you say Jazzy is on fish oil? The vet and kidney specialist put Rudy on it to help with the kidney inflammation and protein in urine.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/09/13 06:31 PM

Thanks everyone! I had all these plans on what I was going to do with my new healthy puppy, but they sure didn't work out that way. I can't imagine her found stray at 4 months - she must have been tiny and so afraid....

I guess we just settle into a routine, try not to stress, and keep working towards health. I will let her know that her cyber-aunts are right behind her smile

m&j, I had pulled the fish oil out when everything went wonky. This last week I added in some krill oil, but it's not potent enough, so I will switch back to the fish oil, thanks so much for the reminder. One problem is that I have high DHA oil here for her nervous system, and I think anti-inflammatory works better if it's high EPA. I need to find one that she can swallow. I wish the manufacturers would put pill size on their their products. For now, I'll put back the high DHA, since that's certainly better than what she is getting now.
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/09/13 09:12 PM

I'm using Sea Pet "200" with vitamin D, per Sabine. It's a liquid and I give Rudy two teaspoons a day in his food.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/10/13 06:13 AM

I've looked at that before, but I've never found a label online that says total amount of fat and how much of that is EPA and how much is DHA. Does your label state the amounts?
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/10/13 04:21 PM

serving size 1 teaspoon.
Crude fat 99.5%
moisture 1%

EPA 775 mgs
DHA 515 mgs
vit E 200 IU
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/10/13 05:55 PM

Thanks! I wish they would say how mg of fat there is, so I can tell how much non-03 is in there. But for a teaspon, I think that's a pretty good amount - I'll ask over at Sabine's. Maybe I will try that one though. If she likes the taste, it might help keep her eating.
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/10/13 07:25 PM

Make sure you get the "200", as it has vitamin E in it. If not, you have to supplement the regular one with vit E a few times a week.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/10/13 08:03 PM

They don't specify the E they use either. Can you tell I'm a control freak crazy

Lol, I will take my time and see how the stuff I'm using now works as I aadd it back, and eventually double the dose.
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/10/13 08:14 PM

Hm. Well, I originally bought the stuff the vet uses, then Sabine said to use Sea Pet "200". I'm sure she is on top of it, she researches this kind of stuff. I don't think she would recommend this product is there were any concerns.

But yes, use up what you have!

Mary
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/10/13 09:45 PM

I know a lot of folks use it and I certainly haven't heard any complaints.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/11/13 05:06 AM

"cyber-Aunts" wub
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/11/13 05:00 PM

Bianca smile

I just want to say, I love being able to send blood to Protatek. We are running 8 titer tests (tick, protozoa, one fungal), and it's going to cost about $165. I'm going to pack the blood up now. May all be negative, but at leat it will be more info.

Consulted with my old vet today for the blood draw, that I don't see much. She thought Jazz looked great, would never be able to tell all this weird stuff I howing up on her tests. So that's nice to hear I think. She gave me some herbal advice.

Saw the patient she was working with as they finished up - very senior long coat GSD, a beautiful gentle soul that also does therapy work wub I mis having a GSD around...
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/12/13 04:07 AM

hugging One day when Miss Sesame is fully healthy, I'm sure there will be another GSD in need
Posted by: Shepherds

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/12/13 08:27 AM

Just popped in for a quick read and although I haven't gone back through everything, seems like you are still trying to sort things out and solve the puzzle for Miss Jazz. I've used krill and fish oil (supplemented with vitamin e) and I just pierce and squeeze the caps over the food. Krill,obviously stains and makes a mess, but its way easier to get it down their throats that way for those dogs that sniff out capsules/tablets at a 100 paces.

Hope you get some answers soon...from another cyber Aunt smile
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/13/13 04:32 AM

Jazz is so lucky to have so many cyber aunties looking after her laugh

I end up kinda shoving the pill down her throat, slathered in yogurt - she is not a good pill eater, and I think that's just because she feels crummy all the time.

Thanks for popping in, I know it's a really hard time for you right now.
Posted by: SeanRescueMom

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/15/13 08:39 PM

No advice for Jazz other than feel better soon. flowerbasket Hope you don't mind one more cyber Aunt keeping tabs on her. hug
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/15/13 08:54 PM

Another cyper Auntie here. hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/16/13 02:22 PM

Thank you SRM and LMS!

She is pretty stable right now. I have her on her fish oil in the morning and the krill in the evening. The krill doen't have enough o-3's, but two of the fish oil make her lick her anal area, and for now, this seems to be working. Later I'll try bumping up to a second fish oil in the evening after she is used to this for awhile. She gets a bromelain/curcumin pill at night too.

I have been putting blueberries in her food, just on general principles, but I find that they seem to be part of the reason she is doing well. I guess, like cranberries, they are also good for urinary health. I am starting to add a bit of cranberry powder - I need to bring down her urinary ph.

Should get her new amoxicillin script in the maail soon - Really tired of opening up capsules and dividing the dose smile The vet kinda laughed at me crazy but not in a bad way.

Jut waiting for titer results from protatek...
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/16/13 07:48 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa

Jut waiting for titer results from protatek...


Waiting with you. If someone is wise enough to order the tests your dog needs, the option to request that spectrum of specific tests is really important.

Jazz has such a defined character and different from the few dogs I know from experience. I just want her to be 100% well to see her develop with Lisa.

MJ
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/17/13 04:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Mary Jane

Jazz has such a defined character and different from the few dogs I know from experience. I just want her to be 100% well to see her develop with Lisa.

MJ


Oh my gosh, she is very different than the dogs I have known!

I've been sitting, staring at this, thinking about how much time she has already lost, being so sick, but sure do look forward to making up for that lost time.

We are back in regular training once a week, but she gets bored pretty quickly. Next week we start a conditioning class at an agility school - really looking forward to that smile
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/17/13 05:13 AM

I bet she will excell at agility! Would any test like an MRI be useful? How long do all us cyber aunties have to wait for the titer?
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/17/13 08:47 AM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
I've been sitting, staring at this, thinking about how much time she has already lost, being so sick, but sure do look forward to making up for that lost time.

teary

Quote:
We are back in regular training once a week, but she gets bored pretty quickly. Next week we start a conditioning class at an agility school - really looking forward to that smile


That should be a nice distraction for both of you. Have fun.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/17/13 06:53 PM

Thanks Elvi smile

Yes, she does great at agility, but this is some kind of core conditioning class, so I'm really excited to see what it's all about.

Bianca, I'm not sure how helpful an MRI would be. That's about $2,500 here, so it's out of the question at this point (still paying off her scope and everything, which was about $1,800), as well as providing ongoing care. We are running out of non-invasive rule-outs though....

While I'd like to know what's actually wrong with her, I'd settle for her just getting better laugh
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/17/13 07:31 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
Thanks Elvi smile

Yes, she does great at agility, but this is some kind of core conditioning class, so I'm really excited to see what it's all about.


That sounds promising especially since she had the hernia surgery. Maybe this class will help her develop and strengthen the muscles around those areas.

I know this is a lot to ask....are there any new pictures of the little princess? Miss seeing her pretty face LOL.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/18/13 03:26 AM

OOh yes jumping on the photo bandwagon if/when you have a chance please! smile

frown about the costs, it's so hard hugging
Posted by: arycrest

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/18/13 12:01 PM

Originally Posted By: LMS
...
I know this is a lot to ask....are there any new pictures of the little princess? Miss seeing her pretty face LOL.
thumbup
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/18/13 03:35 PM

I have succumbed to peer pressure smile

http://germanshepherdhome.net/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/286021/Jazz_misc#Post286021
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/18/13 04:35 PM

rofl Such a cutie pie. She just made my day. Thanks hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/18/13 07:05 PM

laugh
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/19/13 05:33 AM

smile Thank you
Posted by: Barb E

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/19/13 12:08 PM

I wub her, I swear she's so stinkin' cute it makes my heart hurt!!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/19/13 11:51 PM

Thank you ladies!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/20/13 06:56 PM

Negative for: Lyme, Ehrlichia, Anaplasmosis, Bartonella herm, Toxo, Neospora, Histoplasmosis, and Cryptococcus.

Overall, I'm relieved, but would like to identify the mystery....worried about the protein in her urine, and everything else.

Rethinking Silver, which I haven't yet tried:

Quote:
Treating bacteria with a silver-containing compound boosted the efficacy of a broad range of widely used antibiotics and helped them stop otherwise lethal infections in mice. It helped make an antibiotic-resistant strain of bacteria sensitive to antibiotics again. And it expanded the power of an antibiotic called vancomycin that is usually only effective in killing pathogens called Gram-positive bacteria, such as Staph and Strep. Silver allowed vancomycin for the first time to penetrate and kill Gram-negative bacteria, a group that includes microbes that can cause food poisoning and dangerous hospital-acquired infections.

Silver also proved useful for two types of stubborn infections that usually require repeated rounds of antibiotic treatment and multiple visits to the clinic: dormant bacteria that lie low during antibiotic treatment and rebound to cause recurrent infections, and microbial slime layers called biofilms that coat catheters and prosthetic joints.

http://wyss.harvard.edu/viewpressrelease/115/a-shot-in-the-arm-for-old-antibiotics


Have no idea about amounts though.
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/20/13 07:01 PM

Have you had a UPC done for the protein in the urine? I know when Rudy was dx with it, they brought up inflammation possibly being the cause of his GN.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/20/13 07:20 PM

Thanks m&j, she does have protein in her urine (posted below). The IMS does think it's from the inflammation related to bladder issues, which are related to the colon issues, so he hasn't recommended further testing at this point.

Here's her last u/a, it's not pretty, still working on it, dipstick still shows elevated Ph, which is an indicator of infection, which is causing the crystals and the Ph, and probably the protein, though it's not completely clear exactly where all the inflammation is - if it's confined or not frown



Can't seem to get that specific gravity down - not enough water is getting into her bladder, which may be causing some of this. He says that it's being pulled into her gut instead because of the gut issues.

ETA: oh, he did add he's pretty concerned about what this is doing to her kidneys frown One reason for not running the test yet is that it wouldn't change what we would do, and wouldn't really give him any new information.
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/20/13 07:37 PM

Good news that Lyme, etc is ruled out but what the heck is going on in the other areas? So weird that it is such a mystery. Poor Jazzy. I heard really good things about silver. Can you consult with your homeopathic Vet about amount?
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/20/13 08:32 PM

Thanks Elvi, I am starting my list now for the homeopathic vet. I know I'll still forget half of my questions....

I had already planned on rotating oil of oregano and goldenseal. She doesn't do so well on the OoO, but we need to kick this, whatever it is. And I need to get at this inflammation.....
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/20/13 09:16 PM

Have you joined the k9kidneydiet yahoo group? They may have some recommendations for inflammation. There is also k9kidney yahoo group but I don't check there as often.

Also, Mary Strauss at dogaware.com was extremely helpful to me.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/21/13 02:33 AM

No, there's nothing to be done there at this point, there is not much flexibility in her diet, we just have to get this infection and inflammation under control, so I will focus on that.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/21/13 04:57 AM

Oh Lisa, how frustrating frown I wish I had some ideas :hugging>
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/21/13 12:06 PM

Thank you bianca. At least with the negative results, I can focus better...
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/21/13 12:25 PM

hugging hugging hugging
Posted by: m&j

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/21/13 06:22 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
No, there's nothing to be done there at this point, there is not much flexibility in her diet, we just have to get this infection and inflammation under control, so I will focus on that.



Check it out, not necessarily for diet changes, but they have good info on supplements for UTIs and inflammation.
Posted by: Shepherds

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/22/13 11:20 PM

Hi Lisa....dont quite have my head around the latest Miss Jazz results, but I understand high Ph levels, consideration around urinary, kidney issues and getting the PH balance right and crystals....have I got that right??..

If so for PH related matters...suggest you have a look at this.... I have used it numerous times in dogs, for Kobe and also for my other boy Reza, who has severe digestive issues from a snake bite and the anti venom treatment.

http://www.sanum.com/product_info.php?products_id=34&cPath=22&language=en

And although it could be In here somewhere...also wondering what Jazzs blood sugar results are?
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/23/13 02:30 PM

Thanks m&j, will have to find my way to that list. I'm on the kidney group from Long ago. I was hoping to find some alternatives on the IBD lists. They did remind me about the boswellia, which is supposed to be particularly good for ibd.

Marie, that supplement looks like it will primarily alkalize?
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/23/13 05:58 PM

Lisa,

I have a lot of problems with inflammation and acupunture and acupressure have been so helpful for me...just a thought!
Posted by: Shepherds

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/23/13 05:59 PM

Yes that's right Lisa.

For Reza, it is the primary supplement that underpins everything else I give him...keeping his system alkalized helps with his appetite (lack of), ability to maintain weight, nausea and vomiting. It would seem his system has become far to acidic since the bite and if I don't use the Alkala as the base from which I work, then everything else falls apart.

It's my understanding (and I'm far far far from being any kind of expert), but getting acidity under control helps in dogs with digestive issues...IBD, malabsorption etc.

Edited to add...even the digestive enzymes I give him, don't seem to be as effective without using the Alkala.


Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/23/13 11:44 PM

Thanks Marie.

I can't make her system more alkaline, her infection already creates an alkaline environment, which creates crystals in the urine, so I have to keep her acidic, and hope that the antibiotics take care of the infection.

I'm not sure we have the right antibiotic though, I guess we'll see when we retest her. I need to contact the vet next week and see when that will be.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/23/13 11:47 PM

Ruth, thanks.

I am surprised the holistic vet hasn't talked about acupuncture, but I really think that she doesn't appreciate the full significance of what is going on. I seem to have a dog that is too healthy to be sick! I think this would be a good avenue to pursue though, might see what the homeopathic vet says first.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, clostridium perfringens - 06/24/13 04:09 AM

Huh thinking

I was looking at colostrum, and it turns out that human babies have a lower risk of inguinal hernia if they are breast fed: http://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476%2895%2970268-7/abstract
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Jazzy Jazz Jazmine, vet consult today - 06/28/13 03:54 AM

Started a new thread here: http://germanshepherdhome.net/forum/ubbt...g_fr#Post287427