Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue)

Posted by: bianca

Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/08/13 03:52 AM

Cooper has been fed Canidae grain free with raw for the last maybe 5-6 months with no problems. About a month ago, he started bile vomiting in the late afternoon so he gets a small lunch now (as well as breakfast and dinner) and he hasn't been sick since. I thought it a bit weird but it didn't ring any alarm bells.

Yesterday on our morning walk he had a mucusy(sp) poop (really stinky). So I stopped all supplements and he has had just dry since then. His poops have been fine since then until on this mornings walk. Same thing again (not quite as runny).

I took a stool sample to the vet and there was nothing showing. He mentioned it could be diet related and also mentioned it *could* be something along the lines of Lymphocytic-plasmacytic enteritis (LPE).

I am really looking for thoughts/ideas I guess please. Do I worry about it yet or see how he goes? I think if it was just the poop I wouldn't worry so much but the bile vomiting if not feed 3 x is a bit odd?

Do I switch to a different food (vet said Hills ZD) and see or do I ask for more testing. I am a bit short on funds but will test bloods etc if needed?
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/08/13 05:35 AM

Hills z/d is very expensive, and there's not a lot of nutrition in it. LPE is one of the things that jazz has. It means that the colon is inflamed and those are the type of cells that are essentially causing the inflammation. I think there are three or four type of colitis, and the LPE I the most common.

But Cooper is a GSD, and if he had anything really wrong, I would first suspect SIBO.

The first thing I would try I probiotics. I prefer something with acidophilous, bifidus, and bulgaricus.

If that doesn't work, I would try tylan, then flagyl. Testing for SIBO is imprecise, so I'm not sure I would even test.

If you have ome B-12 left over from molly, or even a B-complex, that might be helpful, but I would first try the B12 and note response.

Easiest and cheapest thing to do is first load him up on probiotics and see if that helps.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/08/13 05:38 AM

Oh, if the probiocis don't help, I might try a bland diet with probiotics.

Also check color and smell of the current bag of kibble - kibble gets easily compromised.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/08/13 05:38 AM

And most important, give Cooper a big smooch from me - Molly too!
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/08/13 08:13 AM

Thank you so very much Lisa hugging I appreciate it so much. That was my first thought this morning SIBO or EPI but I don't really know enough about either. I have some good probiotics here so will start that with breakfast.

Would the vomiting mean anything?

ETA: Bag of food appears to be normal.

Thank you again and a smooch for sweet Jazzy too please! smile
Posted by: LifeAsMe

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/08/13 08:27 AM

Originally Posted By: bianca
Cooper has been fed Canidae grain free with raw for the last maybe 5-6 months with no problems. About a month ago, he started bile vomiting in the late afternoon so he gets a small lunch now (as well as breakfast and dinner) and he hasn't been sick since. I thought it a bit weird but it didn't ring any alarm bells.

Yesterday on our morning walk he had a mucusy(sp) poop (really stinky). So I stopped all supplements and he has had just dry since then. His poops have been fine since then until on this mornings walk. Same thing again (not quite as runny).

I


Interesting. We were feeding Canidae ALS and both dogs eating it were throwing up and had diarrhea. We switched to Victor and so far so good.

Maybe it's not Cooper but the food? Where is yours manufactured? I assume it's different than the states but maybe the raw materials are sourced from the same place?
Posted by: Qyn

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/08/13 08:57 AM

Well ... while I am not saying Cooper and Quynne will have the same solution there are some similarities. Quynne still has to have breakfast before noon or she will occasionally bile vomit (obviously she is a brunch not a dunch girl smile ) and also occasionally has mucous poop. I find the mucous for her seems to be related to a higher proportion of muscle meat to bone than normal ie the meaty bones are more meatier than usual. The bile vomit is rare as the only time breakfast is late is if I have been interrupted by something and meals get out of sync but it still happens especially since I have reduced the volume of her meals as I need to keep her thinner than I was due to her UAP ED - I have also given her a little extra in the middle of the day if she has vomited and that seems to fix the problem. In her case it is just something I keep aware of and adjust quantities of meat to bone and also give more at breakfast than dinner and it resolves.

I hope this does not turn into another issue for Cooper - the poor pup and you have been through enough over the last year or so! hugging
Posted by: Kayos

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/08/13 09:04 AM

I think Lisa covered it. Hope Cooper gets through this fast and easily for you!
Posted by: SeanRescueMom

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/08/13 10:53 AM

Thinking of Cooper, he's had his share of health problems and I hope he feels better soon. The info. Lisa gave you sounds very helpful. hug
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/08/13 01:16 PM

Originally Posted By: LifeAsMe

Interesting. We were feeding Canidae ALS and both dogs eating it were throwing up and had diarrhea. We switched to Victor and so far so good.

Maybe it's not Cooper but the food? Where is yours manufactured? I assume it's different than the states but maybe the raw materials are sourced from the same place?


Maybe it isn't cooper!

Btw, I think vomiting can occur with any tomach upset. There was someone on the old forum that had the bile vomit thing, an probiotics took care of it.
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/08/13 03:37 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
There was someone on the old forum that had the bile vomit thing, an probiotics took care of it.


I haven't tried probiotics for Mars but he has vomited bile in the evening and refused to eat the midday snack we left him, so I turned to Ruth's slippery elm. He loves it and there is a one-to-one relationship (when I'm around) SE = no vomiting, no SE = vomiting.

I hope your black puppy is better smile
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/08/13 04:02 PM

Oh yes, great idea! Slippery elm (if there are no elm allergies!), and/or l-glutamine. Marshmallow if slippery elm I not tolerated.

(Eta: The SE will help treat the assaulted gut, but may not treat the underlying cause, o I would firat note response to probiotics. )
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/08/13 04:21 PM

I am using a really good prebiotic/digestive supplement made by InClover called Optagest. It has been very helpful for both Rafi and Kailor. Also, Rafi had terrible digestive problems when I adopted him and I started him on Honest Kitchen's Perfect Form and that has also been helpful for him.
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/08/13 05:04 PM

I am no help but wishing Cooper the very best!
Posted by: Natalie559

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/08/13 05:09 PM

The bile wouldn't have be concerned really and the mucosy poop, I'd give it a little while, maybe he just ate something you didn't see or something that irritated his stomach.

Is the current bag of food new? Any new raw ingredients or a bone he usually doesn't have but did? Mom or Dad sneak him some tid bits?
Posted by: DianaB

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/08/13 08:30 PM

We went thru this for the first 3 years with Siena.

Our success came in relatively this order (making sure not to do anything too fast).
Metocloperamide /Reglyn once daily before breakfast. This is specific to treat vomit and regurgitation. With meds happens 3-4 x a year, without, it's a regular occurance.
Slippery elm at each meal.
Probiotics (we tried petDophilus originally).
B12 injection monthly (low b12 showed in bloodwork and is indicative of SIBO.
TYLAN was the main key to our success. Without it, she gets HGE and ends up sick, very fast. So after initial dosing, she gets one a day with food in am (and probiotics in other meal).

She also has an allergy to any poultry:bird and eats beef or buffalo as protein source.

That's my take on it. Best of luck. Can be hair pulling for sure.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/09/13 04:51 AM

Thank you all so very much for your responses hugging

LAM: The Canidae is made in the USA. The bag is a week old and Molly has not had any problems. It smells and looks the same as previous bags (we go through 1 a month).

The raw they both get is pretty much just a topping on the kibble and that hasn't changed - human grade meat. No bones for a few weeks and Ma and Pa do give tidbits but sod all really and they are aware of the big no, no's.

SO how long should I give just the probiotics before I trial the next step? He had 1 last night and just now.

Again last night and this morning his poop was fine and yet on our morning walk it was icky again frown

I am just unsure whether this is an oddity or now a more serious ongoing issue.

Thank you all again so very much hugging
Posted by: Kayos

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/09/13 08:47 AM

I find that sometimes my dogs will have great poos first thing in the morning and as the day preogresses will have a gooier one. Like Havoc's this morning on our walk.

I sometimes think the exercise moves the bowels along faster so the poop is not as formed as there is more water in it. Just my take after watching Havoc have digestive issues off and on for 6 years. I tend to fixate on his elimination habits and really, he is fine and this is normal for him. Mayhem will also do this and she has never had a problem. Kayos does not do this and has also never had digestive problems unless she eats soemthing she should not eat.

Hope Coopie's poopies are better! rofl poop

(Can I be a poet when I grow up?? -- WAIT -- I am NEVER growing up!!!! rofl ))
Posted by: Natalie559

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/09/13 09:55 AM

If the bag of food is only 1 week old and the problem other than bile started within that time I would go get another bag of food and feed that noting if you see a difference. Maybe check to make sure new bag is not from same lot?

Another thing you could do is to homecook chicken and rice, this should make everything better and if it is better then you go back to the food and he's messed up again you would know it's the food or something in the food that's not agreeing with him. I would do the homecooked bland diet for about 1 week then slowly reintroduce the kibble.
Posted by: LifeAsMe

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/09/13 10:20 AM

Our bag of food smelled fine and was not old either. I can't say it was the food, but I can say that since we switched there has been no vomiting, diarrhea or excessive gas.
Posted by: middleofnowhere

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/09/13 12:55 PM

I took me a long while to resolve mucous in the stool. Figured it out by accident. I had been giving the Barker Sisters raw local honey. Doesn't take much to produce a mucousy stool. So perhaps what you are feeding has a sugar content?
Posted by: anniej

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/09/13 02:08 PM

Chamsa would vomit bile frequently unless I fed her small meals four times a day. Check the ingredients in food and try a diet without them - I would avoid Hills Z/D it is not for long term use and one of the ingediants is a known carcinogenic.

Chamsa always did well on Orijen five fish when she was having one of her 'episodes'. Hope things resolve soon
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/09/13 03:41 PM

Like Havoc, Niko has the same decline in poop quality through the morning. I take him out to run and we don't begin running until he has his first poop. It is always nice and firm (well, normally it is). A couple miles down the road he will go again, and it is generally rather nasty to pick up, soft and gooey. If he goes a third time, I just look the other way whistling because it won't be much, we are in the middle of the woods, and I wouldn't be able to pick it up anyway. I will look around and put a big rock on it crazy

Then if he goes in the afternoon, it will be firm again. So I like Kathy's theory of time spent in the digestive system resulting in firmer poops due to increased water absorption.

This could be totally wrong, but is it the protein source causing the issue? The last time Niko has this problem (mucous poo) he had eaten beef. Beef seems to really mess with him. It doesn't bother Rosa at all.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/09/13 08:13 PM

Way back when, when I was still training (other dogs, not my own), it used to be that dogs either did really well on Canidae, or not. If you don't see improvement on the probiotics in about 4-5 days, I would try a bland diet.

Jazz here gets 1 human probiotic a day, and a double(?) dose of mercola probiotics. She is on antibiotics, but that seems to work for her. I would consider working up to 1 pill twice a day, then two pills twice a day for a GSD with symptoms.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/10/13 05:15 AM

rofl Kathy! Coopies poopies were better today!!!!! And my mum said growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional!

Thank you all so much. I think I will give it until the weekend on just the probiotics and go from there. He didn't have a poop on this mornings walk and the ones at home are ok.

Nice though, went into the vets to pay for the fecal today and he said nope, no charge as I fund them enough! smile
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/10/13 05:19 AM

Thanks MIddle, I will look at the bag and check the sugar, never would have thought of that.

Really interesting that Havoc and Niko have similar during walks/runs.

I feed the Chicken, lamb, turkey and fish version. Now that I actually think about it, that is a heck of a combination???? The problem is, there really isn't very much decent quality kibble to choose from. And they have both seemed healthy since being on it, skin, coat and firm poops.
Posted by: Kayos

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/10/13 04:44 PM

Nice vet!!!!

Leah, Havoc cannot do Beef either..... bad poo on beef, yuk.
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/10/13 06:55 PM

Originally Posted By: Kayos
Nice vet!!!!

Leah, Havoc cannot do Beef either..... bad poo on beef, yuk.


They have much in common, they must be kindred spirits! laugh
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/11/13 03:31 AM

Originally Posted By: Good_Karma
Originally Posted By: Kayos
Nice vet!!!!

Leah, Havoc cannot do Beef either..... bad poo on beef, yuk.


They have much in common, they must be kindred spirits! laugh


smile
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/11/13 08:37 AM

What a super-duper wonderful vet you've got! How is Cooper doing? I am really hoping the probiotics help. I notice that when I start Grimm on them (or myself, for that matter) after a period of not being on probiotics, the first few days might not be the nicest digestion. Give it a few days, and those probiotics really help!
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/12/13 03:37 AM

Thank you Patti hugging I know, I was so surprised and grateful to the vet! I said when I get a (another) job I should get a plaque made saying this room was donated by Cooper lol!

He seems to be doing better I think. His poops are fine and on the mornings walk, it is getting better! Still a bit yellow (compared to Molly) but much better! Thank you for asking after my Moose!
Posted by: annie

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/13/13 07:48 AM

I know how frustrating this can be. I have a new pup who became sick the 2nd day I had her. Diagnosed with parvo- hospitalized 3 days then coccidia and tapeworm. Washing my yard with bleach and H2o for weeks. She had to eat low fat diet from the vet. She was on reglan flagyl antibiotics pro-biotics.
She is eating Blue large breed puppy and her poop is cow-pies. I may try pumpkin
and cook chicken and rice. I worry that she is not absorbing nutrients from
her food. She has had so many changes which I did not want to do. I was hoping to stick to one food.Not to mention she could not be socialized-had to keep her
away from other dogs.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/14/13 05:31 PM

annie, you might want to start a thread about your pup?????

bianca, how is Coop doing? poop ????
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/15/13 04:38 AM

Annie I am so sorry you are going through this. It is so frustrating and worrying frown

Lisa thank you for asking hugging I really don't know frown This morning he had a poop at home 15 minutes before our walk and it was good. Then on our walk he had a revolting one. When I cleaned up the dog yard (forgot to do it yesterday) there were 2 really awful ones.

He's still on probiotics. I think from tomorrow I will go the cooked chicken/rice route and see how that goes.

I need to get their titers done (will wait until the house settlement goes through) so would it be worth doing a CBC? Would SIBO/EPI be reflected in bloods? Low B12 etc?
Posted by: Kayos

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/15/13 10:44 AM

Bianca there is a specific test for SIBO. They will need to test Folate/Cobalamine for that. This is B12 levels actually but it is not included on standard tests. Also might look at testing for EPI. The tests are often done together.

I was hoping he was beyond this now.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/16/13 05:42 AM

Thank you Kathy hugging I was so hoping he had just eaten something I hadn't seen frown I will book him in for bloods next week. Am going to start another thread about how much chicken/rice to feed blush
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/16/13 04:23 PM

Bianca, the test for SIBO might be pretty expensive, considering how much everything costs there. And there might be intestinal bugs there that are technically not SIBO.

You might want to ask your vet about treating for SIBO without the tet, though I think I would rather spend the money on a regular blood chemistry and cbc, whatever your full panel is (ask how much to add on thyroid, might be worth a check).

My guess is sibo, or something from the kibble, but the vet may want the regular bloodwork to rule out things like low-level pancreatitis, etc.

When he is relaxed, and you feel his stomach/abdomen (not after a meal), is it oft and upple, or does it have a firmness to it?
Posted by: SeanRescueMom

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/16/13 04:56 PM

No advice, just lots of hugs for Cooper. hug hugging hug
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/16/13 05:00 PM

Bianca, Grimmi and I are sending good vibes that Cooper's tummy settles and that he improves. Grimmi had SIBO. Horrible! My German vet refused a course of Tylan. She instead pleaded with me to try an all-raw diet. (Because Grimm was in to the vet's office every other month for a different antibiotic or a new refill of one that didn't really solve the problem completely anyway)The raw worked.

Whatever is happening with Cooper's tummy, may is soothe itself well soon. You've been through so much with your big black pony! I'm wishing you both only positive things! hugging
Posted by: shepnterrier

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/16/13 05:04 PM

No advice, just many hugging to you and Cooper
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/17/13 03:56 AM

Thank you all so much hugging hugging I am so hoping that whatever this is, isn't a lifelong issue.

Lisa thank you, I will email him and ask about what to test/do/ He did say when I took the fecal in, that it could be food related (and wanted me to put him on hills zd).

His tummy is never really soft. He is really lean and when he rolls over for belly rubs it feels like there is no padding???

Patti he was fed 100% raw before we moved (a year ago) but I just cannot afford it. The 4 chicken breasts I bought yesterday cost me $15!!!!

The house settles next Fri so I was hoping to hold off on any testing until I have some funds from the proceeds. But I think I will just some bloods etc under way regardless.

Thank you all again hugging The black pony appreciates you all hugging
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/17/13 05:32 AM

Just had a look through paperwork and I found a receipt for Molly for a health profile (blood) and urinalysis bioch + S.G, Urine sedimentation test = $270.60.

I know at some stage I had her thyroid tested but not sure if that was the above.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/17/13 02:44 PM

That sounds about right! I pay about 180 for all that if I add on the u/a, and considering your prices...

I am not sure where your vet will want to start, but hopefully you can find something that works without great expense.

Hills z/d is expensive here, so I imagine it is very expensive there. You will probably feel pressured by the vet to feed it, but look up the ingredients before you go, to help you decided. There are some owners that say it helps - the protein is hydrolyzed so it shouldn't be allergenic, but the rest of it isn't.

If you were in the U.S., the first thing I would suspect in terms of diet is the chicken.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/18/13 03:31 AM

Thank you Lisa hugging He did mention the ZD but when I went in said or I could feed a bland home cooked diet.

From email:

basic blood test combined with faecal culture and microbial analysis. If those tests showed anything that might suspect other issues we would then resort to a deeper level of testing. It is possible that these show nothing abnormal as well.



Consult $55

Blood profile $165

Faecal culture&sens $160





Alternatively you could get a big bag of Hills Z/D food and try that for a little while. May be some kind of colitis that could respond to hypoallergenic commercial food. I think the big bags of Z/D are about $150.


So he has been on cooked chicken and rice and his poops seem good???? Do I start to re-introduce the Canidae tomorrow and see what happens?
Posted by: Natalie559

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/18/13 09:13 AM

Originally Posted By: bianca
So he has been on cooked chicken and rice and his poops seem good???? Do I start to re-introduce the Canidae tomorrow and see what happens?


I would do *just* chick/rice for 5-7 days, then slowly reintroduce kibble, like maybe 1/4 of calories, 1/2 of calories, 3/4 of calories then 100% kibble. I still wonder if he starts to act up on the kibble if you by chance didn't get an off bag. . .
Posted by: SeanRescueMom

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/18/13 10:41 AM

Originally Posted By: Natalie559
I still wonder if he starts to act up on the kibble if you by chance didn't get an off bag. . .


Good thinking, you could always try to return the bag - they should stand by their product. Hugs to your furbabies. hug
Posted by: PaddyD

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/18/13 10:47 AM

I have used Immodium AD with good quick results for acute diarrhea.(for my GSD). But I would never use it for more than 2 dosages. It was vet-approved. But it is a controversial drug.
Never use it for cats.
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/18/13 01:34 PM

I agree to wait a few days. You can add more chicken if you're worried about the protein issue. I also use scrambled eggs and oatmeal. smile

I have managed several dogs with weird stomach things. It was always a matter of finding the right food and supplement combo. You may have gotten a bad bag of food or that just might not be the right food for him anymore.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/18/13 02:09 PM

I also agree with Natalie smile

Looks like you might be able to hold off on the tests if you narrow it down to a food issue.

$150 a bag of food, ouch. Labwork is very reasonable! I think that's also a good price on the fecal since it's not just the thing they do in-house, but send out (I think). You'd have to know what they test for, but the salmonella, clostridiume, etc test jazz had was about $200.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/19/13 05:30 AM

Thank you all so much hugging Will do as advised and wait a few more days to put some kibble back in.

LOL Lisa, $150 isn't so bad as I *think* it's a 25kg bag, the Canidae is $119 for 13.5kg! Good thought about the bag possibly being the cause.

My house settles next Fri so I will take both dogs in for bloods for titers and get Coops done as mentioned. If nothing else I guess I have a baseline.

Thank you all again hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/19/13 11:22 PM

I'm just glad that he is responding to the bland diet, that's very encouraging.

Next Friday - yay!
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/20/13 04:08 AM

I know! I went yesterday and did the big clean up as the buyers had a final inspection. Felt really weird being there frown
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/21/13 03:44 PM

I can imagine the weirdness. It will nice to have this step behind you hugging
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/22/13 03:25 AM

Thanks Lisa hugging As of Friday it will be the first time in 20 years I have not owned a house wow
Posted by: Shepherds

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/22/13 03:57 AM

Hi Bianca....just been reading up on the black pony's latest troubles.. Sorry to hear he is having gut issues.

My boy Reza does the same on and off...and few causes I have identified include too much dairy, too much wild life poop (yuck) and too much fat (bone marrow, fatty meat etc).

Have there been any changes at all since moving to your parents? Food, water (moving from town to tank or access to other water)....mum and dad not telling you the truth about how much they spoil your dogs when you are not about....treats etc??????
Posted by: Hatterasser

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/23/13 11:28 AM

Bianca, my Thor had on again/off again problems with his tummy his entire life. I never could pin it down to any one thing but every time we had an incident, I'd give him nothing but rice for one meal then add egg or chicken to rice the next meal and would continue feeding him that until he settled down. I also had a running prescription of metronidazole if it got too bad.

The best I could come up with was that he was a nervous dog and any change in his routine would cause his tummy to react. I hope your baby is okay but I'd certainly go gently with his food until his tummy settles down.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/24/13 12:02 AM

Originally Posted By: bianca
Thanks Lisa hugging As of Friday it will be the first time in 20 years I have not owned a house wow


A fresh start I guess, a new you, though it might take awhile.

I hope that Coop is still doing better.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/24/13 04:19 AM

Thank you Marie, Diane and Lisa hugging

Well Coopies poppies laugh are still fine!!!!! Not sure what has happened or not but I'll take it! I even added a tiny bit of minced pork (raw) to his dinner last night and still perfect poop I think I will stay with that for a few weeks and then try different meat.

I will take both dogs in next week for bloods (titers) and get Coopers CBC done so will post when I have it.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/29/13 05:32 AM

Well I made a poop mistake yesterday and now the black pony has the runs frown It didn't even dawn on me until this morning but since always I have given the dogs a marrow bone every week to keep their teeth clean. A couple of months ago I stopped because Coop was getting an upset tummy.

Yesterday I noticed his teeth were a little manky so gave him a lamb neck (with a lot of the fat cut off). Bad mistake it seems.

So took both mutleys in for their titer bloods and have had the vet send out a complete blood profile and fecal culture and sensitivity (whatever that means).

Back to cooked chicken/rice tomorrow frown Maybe he is like Reza and Thor?
Posted by: PaddyD

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/29/13 07:02 AM

Sorry for your troubles. I learned to make sure I dig most of the marrow out of the bones
before giving them to Abby. Gives her the runs. Which reminds me.
Time for another bone.
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/29/13 10:21 AM

Aw, poor Coopsie! Rafi can't have marrow bones. I stopped giving them to him. I just give him elk antlers now or chicken backs.
Posted by: Kayos

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/29/13 10:59 AM

No marrow bones here either. Antlers instead. Hope Coop's tummy settles.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/29/13 01:20 PM

I used to give Indy a digestive enzyme pill right before I gave a marrow bone, it helped a lot.

I hope the black pony feels better soon - be sure to get a copy of all the lab results!
Posted by: Woodreb

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/29/13 01:39 PM

I hope the poor guy feels better soon.
Posted by: Hatterasser

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/29/13 03:36 PM

Was he the same before his surgery..loose bowels and runs? If not, it may have been that which upset his system and he just hasn't fully recovered from the .. shock isn't the word I want but you can figure it out.

I agree with everyone else who suggested antlers instead of marrow bone. Try that instead. Hope his tummy settles soon.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/30/13 05:27 AM

Thank you all, I will have a look online for antlers. Couldn't find anyone in town who has them. I wonder if Roo tails would be good too? I hate the idea but know that there is sod all fat.

The other slightly odd thing is for the last week or so when Molly barks at the cows and Dad tells her to quiet...Coopie slinks of to his bed in my room. It's certainly not like he hasn't heard raised voices before (and Dad doesn't shout just uses THAT tone!). Then yesterday I was out for a few hours and apparently the wind came up and Coop starting freaking. Then the bathroom door slammed shut and he was shaking like a leaf. Both Mum and Dad were trying to reassure him. I am hoping it is just he wasn't feeling well or maybe an age thing?
Posted by: Shepherds

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/30/13 06:10 AM

Hi Bianca.....sorry to hear about the marrow bone causing the black pony further upset. In relation to the roo necks...have you fed them game meat before? If not you need to introduce it very very slowly as although it is low in fat, it is a very rich meat and some dogs don't tolerate it at all well...

As for his change in his behaviour....I should know, but how old is Coop now?
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/30/13 07:31 AM

Bianca, I'm not sure why Cooper seemed anxious, but I am sending all the good vibes I can that he settles and feels better soon. I too would recommend antlers, they're simply wonderful and so calming! No fat on them, they're clean, sturdy, and the black pony may really enjoy them, Molly Moo, too! I'm sorry I haven't any solutions, but I am beaming positive, healing vibes out for your dear Cooper. May he be feeling strong and well soon! crossedfingers
Posted by: Kayos

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/30/13 08:36 AM

Aww coopie..... no need tp be anxious. Poor guy. Hopefully it is just an off day for him.
Posted by: Hatterasser

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/30/13 07:17 PM

That's what I asked earlier. Apparently he has developed a nervousness post-surgery as he sounds more and more like Thor, who definitely had a nervous tummy .. and behavior. He will need tons of love and socialization, the latter something I learned too late. Poor Coop. I want to come over there and give him a gentle hug.

Best of luck finding the right solution to his change in personality.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 07/31/13 04:01 AM

Thank you all hugging hugging Marie, Coop is almost 21 months. I was thinking of Roo tails more than necks. Molly has had them in the past and was fine but she didn't like roo meat. Coop has never had roo. I think in a few weeks I may try and see how he goes???

Diane, Coop has had general anesthetic so many times (all his elbow issues) before the hip surgery so it could well be that. I just don't know frown

And he would adore all those hugs...he is a big sook really wub
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/01/13 02:31 AM

Any lab tests back yet?
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/01/13 03:50 AM

Thank you so much for checking Lisa hugging I went in today and the fecal came back all clear for everything. The blood work was all normal apart from the ALT was 5% elevated??? He said that is a liver indicator. I will ask for an email copy so I can post.

His poops are pretty much back to 100% so we both agreed to monitor and see how he goes. If he is still having issues, we will re-do the bloods but he said the next step after that is invasive testing such as a liver biopsy. I would really like not to have to put him through that frown
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/01/13 05:40 AM



My puppy is growing up frown
Posted by: PaddyD

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/01/13 06:22 AM

Originally Posted By: bianca
Thank you all, I will have a look online for antlers. Couldn't find anyone in town who has them. I wonder if Roo tails would be good too? I hate the idea but know that there is sod all fat.

The other slightly odd thing is for the last week or so when Molly barks at the cows and Dad tells her to quiet...Coopie slinks of to his bed in my room. It's certainly not like he hasn't heard raised voices before (and Dad doesn't shout just uses THAT tone!). Then yesterday I was out for a few hours and apparently the wind came up and Coop starting freaking. Then the bathroom door slammed shut and he was shaking like a leaf. Both Mum and Dad were trying to reassure him. I am hoping it is just he wasn't feeling well or maybe an age thing?

It sounds like he has been traumatized by all that he has gone through.
He needs to have his confidence and trust built back up again.
When Dad yells Coop doesn't know that it is not him being yelled at.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/01/13 10:36 AM

Did you by chance get a copy of all of the bloodwork? I always tell then it's for my file at home. I would like to see it. We will need to get him on some liver support.

The liver is also important in digestion. I think it's highly likely that the liver enzymes are elevated from drugs, but I may not be remembering correctly. Was he on pain killers before his surgery? How about after?

Liver support, you'll want a couple bottles:
http://m.vitacost.com/country-life-liver-support-factors-100-tablets
http://m.iherb.com/Country-Life-Gluten-Free-Liver-Support-Factors-100-Tablets/1670
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00020IJCO
Etc, don't know who has the best shipping.

Tick disease can also raise ALT, and of course other things too.

(Ssome Tbd in australia: http://www.google.com/search?q=ehrlichia...246.Y5OwuBT4vaQ )

hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/01/13 10:38 AM

...And the picture, he's magnificant wub
Posted by: Natalie559

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/01/13 11:06 AM

Look at that handsome Coop!!! wub
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/02/13 02:48 AM

Thank you all hugging

Paddy, thank you. Just a brief background without going into the gory details teehee! Cooper has been through numerous surgeries in his short life and up until a few months ago we lived with my now ex. There he was exposed to a lot of tension and some loud ugly arguments. Coop bless his cotton socks especially with all the vet visits he has had, has the VERY best temperament. So this was a bit surprising and I have to wonder if his reaction was due to him not feeling well. He is total clown and I have and will continue to do everything possible for him smile

Thank you Lisa, I was hoping you could have a look! smile

Specimen: Faeces


MICROSCOPY
Leucocytes not detected. Erythrocytes not detected.


No parasites detected in direct preparation or zinc
floatation.


GIARDIA ELISA for Giardia NEGATIVE.




CULTURE
Faecal culture NEGATIVE for Salmonella sp.


Faecal culture NEGATIVE for Campylobacter sp.


GENERAL BIOCHEMISTRY SPECIMEN : SERUM
Sodium 152 mmol/L (138 - 158) Protein 67 g/L (54 - 78)
Potassium 5.7 mmol/L (3.8 - 5.8) Albumin 38 g/L (24 - 38)
Na/K 26.7 Globulin 29 g/L (24 - 42)
* Chloride 119 mmol/L (100 - 115) * T. Bil. 1 umol/L (2 - 15)
Bicarb. 22 mmol/L (18 - 24) GGT 3 U/L (1 - 10)
Anion Gap 17 mmol/L Alk Phos 23 U/L (10 - 120)
* Urea 11.4 mmol/L (3.6 - 8.9) * ALT 84 U/L (5 - 80)
Creat. 127 umol/L (43 - 129) AST 36 U/L (10 - 80)
CK 170 U/L (50 - 400) Chol. 6.2 mmol/L (3.9 - 7.8)
Amylase 732 U/L (180 - 1300) Calcium 2.78 mmol/L (2.10 - 2.80)
Lipase 20 U/L (< 70) Phosphate1.26 mmol/L (0.87 - 2.10)
Magnesium 1.0 mmol/L (0.6 - 1.3)


* Non preserved Glucose 1.0 mmol/L (3.3 - 6.7)


SERUM INDICES (Clear/+/++/+++/++++)
Icterus index Clear
Lipaemia index Clear
Haemolysis index Clear






GENERAL HAEMATOLOGY


The EDTA blood sample is clotted, unable to perform haematology. A
fresh EDTA sample (only) is required to finalise the testing you have
requested.


IMPORTANT:
1. Please print and submit THIS NOTICE only with the recollect. This
helps us link haematology results with this episode. If that form is
not received, there is a possibility of additional charge.


2. This submission will be kept open for two weeks and will be closed
if no sample is received during this time.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/02/13 02:50 AM

Sorry I just copied and pasted so not sure why it looks like that?

So they couldn't do the haematology part so as it stands I think I will leave everything for 4-6 weeks and redo???

I will order the liver support thank you so much but will wait until you have a chance to look at the rest in case I need something else. Also if I start him on that, would it affect the next blood results?

Thanks so much smile
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/02/13 02:59 AM

Oh and after his surgery he was om a fentanyl patch, thentramadol and ace.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/02/13 04:35 AM

Okay, so all the fecal stuff was negative. That would have been a straight forward answer!!

Does Coop drink much water?

LOL, if you hit QUOTE in your post above, the numbers line up very nicely smile


Quote:
GENERAL HAEMATOLOGY


The EDTA blood sample is clotted, unable to perform haematology. A
fresh EDTA sample (only) is required to finalise the testing you have
requested.


IMPORTANT:
1. Please print and submit THIS NOTICE only with the recollect. This
helps us link haematology results with this episode. If that form is
not received, there is a possibility of additional charge.


2. This submission will be kept open for two weeks and will be closed
if no sample is received during this time.

Please call your vet about this - he should have discussed this with you. This says that they did not prepare or handle the blood correctly, or something happened with the draw, so that you didn't get everything that you paid for. I am wondering if this is the blood counts, or CBC, (red blood cells, etc.), but am not sure. This is what will tell you if there is evidence of infection, etc. If it isn't completed, you should be due at least a partial refund, I would guess. But the CBC can give an indication if there is an infection like lepto, etc., which can affect liver and kidneys.


Quote:

Albumin 38 g/L (24 - 38)
* T. Bil. 1 umol/L (2 - 15)

These values aren't a concern - high albumin and low bilirubin. I did a quick read and it said something about bilirubin binding to albumin, so maybe that is why they seem to be inversely related, am not sure. Low Alb is a big problem, as is high bilirubin, both of which can be seen in liver disease, which doesn't show here.

Quote:

* Chloride 119 mmol/L (100 - 115)

I don't understand this. My dogs have usually had high normal or slightly high chloride, so I don't use it to tell me anything, though I'm sure someone out there has an understanding of how it relates to everything else.

Quote:

GGT 3 U/L (1 - 10)
Alk Phos 23 U/L (10 - 120)
* ALT 84 U/L (5 - 80)
AST 36 U/L (10 - 80)

In addition to bilirubin, these can represent liver function. ALT is a primary representative. However, an increase in a liver enzyme does not necessarily indicate liver disease, it can indicate a process that requires more of that enzyme, as has been explained to me by the biologist on the tick list. My old vet said he doesn't worry about it until the ALT is about 4 times higher than the top number. Certainly not my style, but it may be comforting to know that.

"Mild-moderate increases in ALT (up to four to five times normal) may occur with non-hepatic disorders such as inflammatory GI disease, cardiac failure and haemolytic anaemia." From here: http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/health/liverdisease.htm

Liver panel chart here: http://labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/liver-panel/tab/test

They talk about the ALT starting on pg 4 here: http://www.idexx.it/pdf/it_it/smallanimal/vetlab/catalyst/diagnosing-liver-disease.pdf


Quote:

* Urea 11.4 mmol/L (3.6 - 8.9)
Creat. 127 umol/L (43 - 129)

Kidney parameters, both high or high normal. This can be drug toxicity, but you don't list NSAIDs, which would be my first thought.

Quote:

Amylase 732 U/L (180 - 1300)
Lipase 20 U/L (< 70)

Typically pancreas. Lipase is at the lower end, common in some GSDs. Thought not to be significant, but may be an indicator of a difficulty to absorb fats. You might try an enzyme for him, but it's not clear how necessary this is.

Quote:
* Non preserved Glucose 1.0 mmol/L (3.3 - 6.7)

Um, I think this is an issue. Had he eaten a meal before the blood test?
It can be seen with liver disease according to this link: http://labtestsonline.org/understanding/analytes/glucose/tab/test and, according to the same link, can cause trembling, anxiety, confusion - may be some of the symptoms you are seeing?

I don't know much about this, but once Max had a low glucose reading when I was tyring out a new vet. When I talked to her about it, she waved it off as an artifact with a problem with the blood draw (which is what might be happening here, since there seemed to be some issue). When my regular vet saw it, she was NOT happy that the vet didn't recheck it no charge, since it could be dangerous, though I didn't fully understand exactly what her concern was.

Check any food and/or supplements for xylitol?

Found this: "Hypoglycemia is defined as a blood glucose concentration of < 3.3 mmol/L (1). An initial finding of hypoglycemia should always be confirmed before beginning to work up the problem. Artifactual hypoglycemia is common when there has been a delay in the separation of serum from cells "
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2657529/ From that article, it can also be a sign of infection, which is another reason to have the CBC completed.


Quote:

after his surgery he was on a fentanyl patch, then tramadol and ace.

Off-hand, I don't know if these would be enough to cause these changes? Anyone?

And, yes, starting him on the LSF linked above should improve the blood values. Much much higher values are sometimes seen when treating tick disease, and we use the LSF to bring them down. I know that my dogs' kidney numbers also improved on the LSF.

It is so not fair that Cooper has to go through all of this. How are his stools doing? You will want to keep up the probiotics for a long time, if possible. Give some liver support and monitor, and think about whether you want to try an enzyme.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/02/13 05:34 AM

so, the short synopsis, is that I'm not convinced that this is primary liver, and I'm concerned about the kidneys. If this were my dog, I would try the LSF, one in the morning and one in the evening, and retest. I'm not sure when to retest, maybe someone here knows more about that. The time in my head says 2 months on the LSF then retest, but I can see an argument for testing sooner to make sure they aren't skyrocketing.

But I would want to see that CBC before I committed to anything. RE-reading the slip, the lab is not going to charge for that test, it has already been paid for. So why isn't the vet redrawing the blood and sending it in?????
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/02/13 09:06 AM

Gosh thank you SO much Lisa! am in bed on ph so wil answer properly in the morninf.
The vet said we can do the blood draw again but that because he is getting a bit sensitive to all of this it may pay,to,leave it for now, and yes they will do it at no charge. The glucose reading part I think was a timimg issue
between blood taken and them testing. I need a vet advocate! I am lost.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/02/13 10:17 AM

Bianca, I may be over-reacting, but I think it's really important to get the rest of the bloodwork done. If, for example, he has an underlying infection (say lepto), that can silently damage his kidneys (or worse), you need to know?
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/02/13 10:40 AM

I should also say, I understand not wanting to stress him further, but considering that something is going on, we don't know if we have the luxury of waiting. Maybe you can find some super duper duper treats, better than ever before to help make it worth his while.

If there is nothing alarming there, it will alo help put your mind at ease. I'm thinking more stress is certainly not helpful!
Posted by: Schnickle Fritz

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/02/13 01:25 PM

did other pups in cooper's litter have issues?
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/04/13 03:41 AM

Thank you both hugging SF to the best f=of my knowledge Cooper is the only lemon smile

Lisa after last night I will make an appointment this week to have all of Coops bloods redone. I need to know especially now what I may be dealing with.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/04/13 03:52 AM

Oh Lisa when I get his bloods done, should I fast him before or not? I didn't last time but will also ask the vet.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/04/13 04:50 PM

Originally Posted By: bianca

Lisa after last night I will make an appointment this week to have all of Coops bloods redone. I need to know especially now what I may be dealing with.

hugging hugging hugging

I would fast him, then you will know for sure that the food isn't interfering.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/05/13 03:56 AM

Thank you, I spoke to the vet nurse this morning and she said not to worry but I told her I would fast him for 12 hours. With that being said the appointment that has the earliest time slot is Thursday 9am. Booked in for then.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/05/13 05:49 AM

Waiting days will be okay, just not comfortable waiting months.

It will be hard now, not to work yourself up into a huge worry over this, please know that this is a mild elevation in the grand scheme of elevations, and with anu luck, some liver support will take care of it. We just have to get the rest of that bloodwork to make sure.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/06/13 03:32 AM

Thank you Lisa hugging Just remembered today that he is due his 6 month post-op xrays in September too.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/06/13 10:15 PM

Oh man, always something. But having Coop and Molly there will be great therapy bloomrose
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/07/13 03:51 AM

Yep always something !
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/08/13 03:57 AM

Well today was crap for my poor boy. Took him in for his bloods and he did his usual yah I am so happy to be at the vets. Then Andrew came out and he started barking. I had some twiggy sticks as treats (kind of like salami) but we decided to muzzle him. Cooper was shaking so bad and his legs were rigid as all heck. So in the end I left him while they sedated him. They got enough blood so hopefully tomorrow if not Monday I should have all the results back.

I feel so bloody horrible making him go through this again.

Anywhoo he has spent all day recovering, basically being out of it and sleepy and has only just eaten.
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/08/13 08:12 AM

Sleeping Beauty and Prince Charming in one!

I'm really sorry that going to the vet is such an ordeal for Coopie, but with what he has been through it's completely understandable.

I know that you'll keep us posted.

Mary Jane
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/08/13 08:25 AM

Fingers and paws crossed here for good results for Cooper. Poor boy has been through so much in his life.

You take such care of him. hugging
Posted by: arycrest

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/08/13 09:46 AM

Cooper's been such a trooper thru so many health problems and procedures, I'm sorry it's beginning to affect his visits to the doctor. Please give him an extra hug and a twiggy stick from me and the Hooligans.
grouphug hugging grouphug
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/08/13 11:26 AM

This is so sad, I'm so sorry frown Hate to see the dear boy go through this...

I the vet clinic close enough that you could make sone trips by just to say hi and give him some treats? Jazz used to just shake going to the vet after her two surgeries last summer, and being left too. It took a lot of visits where we just consult for that to get better.

They better not screw up the blood this time!
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/09/13 05:46 AM

Thank you all hugging I used to take him in weekly when he was a pup so will do the same again. He got so used to it that to this day he still takes himself off to the scale and weighs himself while waiting for a treat! wub

Anywhoo got the results back and I think (pending Lisa's opinion smile ) that I can breathe again!

Copied from email from vet:

Blood test results are normal for Cooper. No liver enzyme changes this time.

The slight increase in packed cell volume and haematocrit on the haematology is not significant and may reflect not drinking much in the 12 hours before the blood sampling as well as the sedation tends to slight haemoconcentrate the blood.

WELLNESS PROFILE


GENERAL BIOCHEMISTRY SPECIMEN : SERUM
Sodium 147 mmol/L (138 - 158) Protein 68 g/L (54 - 78)
Potassium 5.5 mmol/L (3.8 - 5.8) Albumin 37 g/L (24 - 38)
Na/K 26.7 Globulin 31 g/L (24 - 42)
Chloride 114 mmol/L (100 - 115) T. Bil. 2 umol/L (2 - 15)
Bicarb. 21 mmol/L (18 - 24) GGT 8 U/L (1 - 10)
Anion Gap 18 mmol/L Alk Phos 25 U/L (10 - 120)
Urea 8.7 mmol/L (3.6 - 8.9) ALT 75 U/L (5 - 80)
AST 32 U/L (10 - 80)
Creat. 114 umol/L (60 - 150)
CK 123 U/L (50 - 400) Chol. 6.4 mmol/L (3.9 - 7.8)
Amylase 821 U/L (180 - 1300) Calcium 2.50 mmol/L (2.10 - 2.80)
Phosphate1.43 mmol/L (0.87 - 2.10)
Lipase 262 U/L (< 480) Magnesium 0.9 mmol/L (0.6 - 1.3)


Preserved Glucose 4.2 mmol/L (3.3 - 6.7)








GENERAL HAEMATOLOGY
* Red Cell Count 8.51 x 10 12 /L (5.50 - 8.50)
* Haemoglobin 205 g/L (120 - 180)
* Hct 0.62 L/L (0.37 - 0.55)
MCV 72 fL (60 - 77)
MCH 24 pg (19 - 24)
MCHC 332 g/L (320 - 360)
White Cell Count 6.9 x 10 9 /L (6.0 - 17.0)
Neutrophils 65 % 4.5 x 10 9 /L (3.0 - 11.5)
Band Forms 0 % 0.0 x 10 9 /L (< 0.4)
Lymphocytes 17 % 1.2 x 10 9 /L (1.0 - 4.8)
Monocytes 2 % 0.1 x 10 9 /L (0.1 - 1.3)
Eosinophils 16 % 1.1 x 10 9 /L (0.1 - 1.3)
Basophils 0 % 0.0 x 10 9 /L
Platelets 298 x 10 9 /L (200 - 500)


FILM MORPHOLOGY: RBC: Normal WBC: Normal PLATELETS: Adequate. .



GRIBBLES VETERINARY PATHOLOGY
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/09/13 05:47 AM

Originally Posted By: bianca
Thank you all hugging I used to take him in weekly when he was a pup so will do the same again. He got so used to it that to this day he still takes himself off to the scale and weighs himself while waiting for a treat! wub

Anywhoo got the results back and I think (pending Lisa's opinion smile ) that I can breathe again!

Copied from email from vet:

Blood test results are normal for Cooper. No liver enzyme changes this time.

The slight increase in packed cell volume and haematocrit on the haematology is not significant and may reflect not drinking much in the 12 hours before the blood sampling as well as the sedation tends to slight haemoconcentrate the blood.

WELLNESS PROFILE


GENERAL BIOCHEMISTRY SPECIMEN : SERUM
Sodium 147 mmol/L (138 - 158) Protein 68 g/L (54 - 78)
Potassium 5.5 mmol/L (3.8 - 5.8) Albumin 37 g/L (24 - 38)
Na/K 26.7 Globulin 31 g/L (24 - 42)
Chloride 114 mmol/L (100 - 115) T. Bil. 2 umol/L (2 - 15)
Bicarb. 21 mmol/L (18 - 24) GGT 8 U/L (1 - 10)
Anion Gap 18 mmol/L Alk Phos 25 U/L (10 - 120)
Urea 8.7 mmol/L (3.6 - 8.9) ALT 75 U/L (5 - 80)
AST 32 U/L (10 - 80)
Creat. 114 umol/L (60 - 150)
CK 123 U/L (50 - 400) Chol. 6.4 mmol/L (3.9 - 7.8)
Amylase 821 U/L (180 - 1300) Calcium 2.50 mmol/L (2.10 - 2.80)
Phosphate1.43 mmol/L (0.87 - 2.10)
Lipase 262 U/L (< 480) Magnesium 0.9 mmol/L (0.6 - 1.3)


Preserved Glucose 4.2 mmol/L (3.3 - 6.7)








GENERAL HAEMATOLOGY
* Red Cell Count 8.51 x 10 12 /L (5.50 - 8.50)
* Haemoglobin 205 g/L (120 - 180)
* Hct 0.62 L/L (0.37 - 0.55)
MCV 72 fL (60 - 77)
MCH 24 pg (19 - 24)
MCHC 332 g/L (320 - 360)
White Cell Count 6.9 x 10 9 /L (6.0 - 17.0)
Neutrophils 65 % 4.5 x 10 9 /L (3.0 - 11.5)
Band Forms 0 % 0.0 x 10 9 /L (< 0.4)
Lymphocytes 17 % 1.2 x 10 9 /L (1.0 - 4.8)
Monocytes 2 % 0.1 x 10 9 /L (0.1 - 1.3)
Eosinophils 16 % 1.1 x 10 9 /L (0.1 - 1.3)
Basophils 0 % 0.0 x 10 9 /L
Platelets 298 x 10 9 /L (200 - 500)


FILM MORPHOLOGY: RBC: Normal WBC: Normal PLATELETS: Adequate. .



GRIBBLES VETERINARY PATHOLOGY
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/09/13 05:47 AM

Sorry, I tried to quote it so it is the same as the email frown
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/09/13 06:28 AM

Oh also both dogs titers came back good, so that is great news smile
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/09/13 02:25 PM

If I "quote" the message, it aligns perfectly.

Yes, definitely breathing much better!

That ALT I still at the high end, and it looks to me that he had an assault on his liver, and is recovering. If it were easy to get and affordable, I would still consider some liver support, and good to have that stuff on hand too. Also wondering about the high rbc's, but hopefully all the rbc stuff will even out too.

Now, what would have caused such an uproar in his liver and kidneys? My first thought goes to the kibble, my second thought is exposure to a something that his immune system handled.

Let's keep good thoughts for Coop that this is the lat of it - that is great bloodwork, and so glad that we can stop stressing about him and go back to just admiring the black pony smile
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/09/13 03:11 PM

Is he eating the food now and doing okay??? That would point to something not-food, if it's the same bag.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/10/13 04:24 AM

Phew thank you so much Lisa hugging I know the vet said he was ok via results but until you looked I didn't believe it! I will order some liver support from vitacost later tonight as he needs more Glycoflex.

Yes to the food although yesterday we opened a new bag and still fine bouncy poops! I think the last episode was caused by the lamb bone.

I am going to give it another week or so and then try and source some Roo tails and try that. If not then it will be antlers.

Thank you again for all your help, we would be lost without you hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/11/13 12:17 PM

I'm just glad that cooper is doing well now!

I think the liver support will be good for him, and it's also good to have ome around in case you need to use any drugs, etc for the dogs.

Give the boy some extra scritches from me, and molly too smile
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/12/13 03:26 AM

hugging Thank you so much Lisa, will do.
I ordered 2 bottles from Vitacost and think they usually take between 2-3 weeks to arrive.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/12/13 10:36 AM

Oh good. We'll see how the dogs are doing when you get it and then decide on a dosing schedule. You'll have to think about whether you think molly should have any.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/13/13 02:52 AM

Thank you Lisa hugging
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/27/13 03:46 AM

Well I now know that Roo tails are not going to work poop Have ordered 2 Antlers so hope they will do the trick re clean teeth!

Lisa, Coopies liver support arrived today, would 1 a day be ok? Thank you in advance hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/28/13 03:56 PM

Bianca, considering he had a recent asault, I would give them about 4 times a week, or every other day for about a month. For a dog his size, I'm not sure that one a week would do anything.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 08/29/13 03:59 AM

Thank you so much Lisa hugging
Posted by: Shepherds

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 09/05/13 07:51 AM

Happy to read the black pony's blood results were good. Roo did not agree with my lot either Bianca. It's a lesson I will never forget....nor ever want to repeat again. Where are you getting the antlers from? Will be interested in your thoughts on them and how your lot tolerate them.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 09/06/13 04:39 AM

Thank you Marie hugging How are your pack doing? Levi is back to normal now I hope?

I ordered them online from Petstock and have them but haven't tried giving them as I am waiting until the big paddock fencing is complete and I can separate Moo and give her a regular bone while Coop gets the $$$$$ ones!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/13/13 06:31 AM

bianca, how are Cooper's stools doing?
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/14/13 02:48 AM

Thank you for asking after the black pony Lisa hugging He is fine as long as his extras are only chicken, pork or sardines. Doesn't seem to tolerate beef anymore and certainly no bones frown
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/14/13 04:28 AM

Poor boy, this is from the other thread....
Originally Posted By: bianca


This was from luchtime today and it's nothing to do with a great 'leave it command' he simply didn't want to eat.





I was looking at the bloodwork again.

Quote:
GENERAL HAEMATOLOGY
* Red Cell Count 8.51 x 10 12 /L (5.50 - 8.50)
* Haemoglobin 205 g/L (120 - 180)
* Hct 0.62 L/L (0.37 - 0.55)
MCV 72 fL (60 - 77)
MCH 24 pg (19 - 24)
MCHC 332 g/L (320 - 360)
White Cell Count 6.9 x 10 9 /L (6.0 - 17.0)
Neutrophils 65 % 4.5 x 10 9 /L (3.0 - 11.5)
Band Forms 0 % 0.0 x 10 9 /L (< 0.4)
Lymphocytes 17 % 1.2 x 10 9 /L (1.0 - 4.8)
Monocytes 2 % 0.1 x 10 9 /L (0.1 - 1.3)
Eosinophils 16 % 1.1 x 10 9 /L (0.1 - 1.3)
Basophils 0 % 0.0 x 10 9 /L
Platelets 298 x 10 9 /L (200 - 500)


FILM MORPHOLOGY: RBC: Normal WBC: Normal PLATELETS: Adequate. .


The absolute numbers are the same intervals the lab has here. Your print out doesn't contain the percentages, but here are the ones I have:

NEUTROPHIL SEG % 60-77
BAND Forms % 0-3
LYMPHOCYTES % 12-30
MONOCYTES % 3-10
EOSINOPHIL % 2-10
BASOPHIL % 0-1

There are two numbers associated with these white blood cells. There is a percentage, how they are distributed in the blood, and then there are the absolute counts of them.

Both the percentage and absolute numbers of the neutrophils and lymphocytes tend toward the low end, which is a bit of a sign of immune suppression.

Monocytes and basophils are low end on both, which is good.

However, the esoinophils are giving us a clue that there is something not right. Percentage is high, which says there is a larger percentage in the blood than normal, and the absolute count is the only white blood cell count that is at the higher end. This could be allergies, infections, parasites, other.

I worry about this frown http://www.petmd.com/dog/conditions/digestive/c_dg_eosinophilic_gastroenteritis_in_dogs_diarrhea
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/14/13 04:58 AM

Thank you so much Lisa, I read the thread you linked on FB hugging At the time my vet seemed inclined to think it was food related and did want me to try the Hills whatever.

He is gaining weight since I've increased his food, up to 34.9kg today. At the time his fecal (tested twice) were clear and I do give an all wormer (including Hyatid).

He certainly isn't lethargic or any noticeable signs of illness. I also wonder if like in the thread, it could be due to his stressing about the blood draw. He has started barking at the vet thus him having to be sedated now.
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/14/13 08:23 AM

That poor sweet boy that doesn't want his blood drawn anymore! That's a shame.

I know he has his real health problems, but my goodness it doesn't show on his coat. I guess that's love combined with sardines.

MJ
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/14/13 10:30 AM

No, the stressing out wouldn't cause the eosinophils to be high frown

Considering he gets dewormed, and how well he did off of the kibble, I would say that he needs to be off this kibble. With Jazz, she has been getting metronidazole once every other day and it has cut her Eos in half (her fecals are also clear). I don't know if that's parasite or inflammation.

With the Eos, that can turn into an ugly form of IBD, and since he is having symptoms, I would act on this. Whether you ak for something like metro, or try a different food option, it's just clear that he's not feeling well frown
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/15/13 02:50 AM

Thank you Mary Jane and Lisa for your continued help hugging hugging I have a small bag of Blackhawk (aussie made) that is grainfree that I have been trying to get him to eat just at lunch time. I guess I can try and wean him onto that and see how he goes? If not I will have to go back to raw but then he can't handle chicken frames for example and I used that as a staple frown
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/16/13 01:53 AM

Yes, it's definitely worth a try.

The food thing is so hard - I had similar problems with Max frown
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/16/13 02:20 AM

frown
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/16/13 07:13 AM

I am lost as to what to do, I had to give him a Previcox last night and tonight and he has the runs again frown I did also give him more of the Blackhawk food and less of the Canidae so not sure of the cause. Or it could be his antler frown

I'm really not sure how to proceed other than 100% Canidae and find some other food and slowly, slowly, slowly introduce it.

How do you substitute bone in a raw diet when his stomach can't tolerate it?
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/17/13 07:41 AM

Well I've just ordered a small bag of Taste of the wild - wild pacific stream salmon and will gradually introduce that to both dogs when it arrives. Coop didn't finish his dinner again tonight. I will wait until the weekend and then try a teeny bit of the green tripe to his meal.
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/17/13 08:30 AM

Originally Posted By: bianca
....Coop didn't finish his dinner again tonight. ....


Poor sweet boy and poor sweet Bianca. GSD are such magnificent dogs with these flaws that trip us up. I can't offer any advice, but I certainly send all kinds of best wishes.

MJ
Posted by: Qyn

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/17/13 06:07 PM

Aww, Bianca sorry to read of Cooper's ongoing problems. It is so worrying when they lose appetite especially if it has not been a problem in the past. He does look kind of depressed in the last photos yet he looked great when he and Molly were playing. I am sorry to have have contacted you about my concerns when you have so much going on yourself. You are a lovely person and your dogs are lucky to have you. hugging
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/18/13 02:35 AM

Thank you Mary Jane hugging Alison, don't you dare be sorry hugging hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/18/13 03:24 AM

Originally Posted By: bianca

How do you substitute bone in a raw diet when his stomach can't tolerate it?

I don't....some dogs can't tolerate raw.

You might try the chicken and rice again and see if he responds. If he does, you know it's the kibble.

I am still worried about a version of colitis that might need some metronidazole, which also has a mild anti-inflammatory (or even amoxicillin).

I hate with all my being to say this, but you might consider a trial of the hill's z/d, only to see if it helps - you would have to cost out that and the cooked chicken and rice and see what is more doable financially perhaps.

I know how hard this is, on so many different levels hugging
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/18/13 07:09 AM

Thank you so much again Lisa hugging He used to eat raw so I don't know what changed unless it's all the ongoing sedations???? His poops are back to normal now so I will not give him any more of the Blackhawk (Molly cast iron guts can finish the bag) and will wait until the TOTW arrives and see how that goes.

If none of that helps then I will buy a bag of zd just to satisfy the vet and then I can push for abx to trial. Does that sound ok.

I was saying to Alison the other day that it's so hard to know if he is in pain (hips) or stressed. He pants so hard compared to Moo and I know the wind now freaks him out. So I never know if I should give Previcox or not.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/18/13 09:24 AM

The anesthesia does take it's toll, but the previcox may be worse for him, it's hard to know.

The gut takes a LONG time to heal, and can't if the conditions aren't just right. If the kibble or a pathogen in the kibble is at fault, there will also be steady deterioration frown if you have anything alippery elm or l-glutamine around, it would be worth trying.

I think that's a reasonable plan, I just suspect, at this point, regular kibble isn't going to work. Hope that I am wrong!
Posted by: Tammi

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/18/13 11:36 PM

Originally Posted By: bianca
How do you substitute bone in a raw diet when his stomach can't tolerate it?


Can you try ground eggshell? It would be a half tsp per pound of meat.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/19/13 03:16 AM

Thank you both hugging I wish there was a magic spot you could press and get a diagnosis frown
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/19/13 08:17 PM

Me too bianca frown
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/20/13 04:44 AM

Well I have given him with his dinner just a few pieces of the green tripe and fingers crossed we may have hit pay dirt! I have never seen him so interested in eating!!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/20/13 02:11 PM

This is great news! Beef tripe (canned tripett, not as good as raw) works well for Jazz - she's not so keen on the lamb tripe.

I am dealing with this here, there are two issues, getting them to eat, and figuring out why they don't feel well. And the latter can be hard to do!!!
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/21/13 02:56 AM

Hmmmmm would you like to deliver Miss Sesame to me, and I can stress over the pair of them!!! frown smile Two nights now and still eating and poop is fine.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/28/13 02:46 AM

I think Miss Sesame has transferred her separation anxiety to me - it would be awfully quite here laugh

How is the boy doing now?
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/28/13 07:12 AM

Well heck, you come too!!!!! Thank you for asking Lisa, he is doing really well!!!!! I ordered another 3 bags of the tripe as he is SO enthusiastic about eating now yippee!!!

How is Miss Jazzy doing now? Any further results back yet? hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/29/13 10:11 AM

Ha! That would be great groovy

I'm glad that he is eating well. Hope the digestion is good too! Things are fairly stable here, not much change in either direction smile
Posted by: SeanRescueMom

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/29/13 09:14 PM

Originally Posted By: bianca
Two nights now and still eating and poop is fine.


Fingers crossed for continued good luck. crossedfingers
Posted by: Shepherds

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/30/13 05:57 AM

Good Job - Where are you getting the Deer antlers and tripe from?
Posted by: bianca

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/30/13 07:00 AM

Thank you all hugging Still going well here.

Marie I am getting the antlers from Petstock (online)

http://www.petstock.com.au/Naturally-Shed-Deer-Antler-Dog-Chews---Large-Full-150gms/p/9337037009180

And the tripe which I am just adding a teeny bit to their food from Petbarn (also online)

http://www.petbarn.com.au/dogs/dog-food-...-food-200g.html

Lisa I suppose stable is good hugging
Posted by: Kayos

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/30/13 08:41 AM

Hoping all is well with Cooper. I actually started feeding mine green tripe (canned Tripett). May is pretty picky and have had trouble keeping weight on her. Problem solved here - at least for now.

Only downside is Havoc is a bit sensitive to beef so he gets very little and I have been buying the beef trip with Venison.
Posted by: Woodreb

Re: Cooper - help needed please (stomach issue) - 10/30/13 10:20 AM

May sounds like Aodhán when she was around th same age. A bit picky and skinny. Watch out, Aodhán got over that and shot up to 95 pounds between 3-4 years old. If I remeber correctly, one of Aodhán's grandsires is one of May's great grandsires.


Bianca - I hope Cooper continues to do well. His twin Ciara can be picky sometimes, but doesn't seem to have any trouble keeping the weight on.