Separation Anxiety (Jazz)

Posted by: MaxaLisa

Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 04/24/12 09:44 PM

I think that little Jazmine has some SA going on. Not only does she panic if I am out of her vision, she freaks when put in a crate or kennel. I have to imagine, spending 6 weeks as puppy in a shelter, and a stray before that, she's not very secure.

Today she was in a 3 ft high xpen (she is 1 ft tall at the withers and 13 lbs), and was freaking out a bit. I was about 20 feet from her, and figured as she saw me, she would settle. Instead it escalated and she scaled the pen and ran to me in a frantic state. I then switch to a airline crate - had to get my lawn mowed.

So, just wondering if folks have some pitfalls I need to avoid as I work through this, or any other helpful hints. I figure a lot of this will be just time and patience and consistency.
Posted by: JeanKBBMMMAAN

Re: Separation Anxiety - 04/24/12 09:59 PM

And she's fine if you are not home, right?

Foster Nico...same thing. If I am gone, there is no destruction or apparent freaking out. When I get back, his greeting is frantic.

But he is way worse if I am home and away from where he can see me.

When I am home, and go to the bathroom (I do not allow the whole pack to accompany, first because, come on! and second, I have an elderly cat who had not lived with dogs, and she is down that hallway), he goes in a crate for safety and starts screeching/peeping. I tried to make a phone call (I always hide for those because if someone "sees" something and they all start barking it is a little unprofessional sounding) and was out of his line of vision - needless to say, the caller could hear him. Even going from one room to another and not letting him follow me...eeep! And you saw his pics with Bella - freaking out that I walked away.

If I have the other dogs in their crates, so it's safe for him to be out alone (sort of) or just him with a couple (safety again) he will just sit at the end of the hallway and wait for me.

It is not occasional, it is consistent. I had googled what I thought he was mixed with (Sheltie?) and found that they are a potential SA dog, but I had never seen an "out of sight, out of my mind" type thing before. Because he doesn't just bark and then stop, it is the whole time I am getting ready or whatever. mouthsealed http://www.yourpurebredpuppy.com/reviews/shelties.html

I am wondering if it's an age thing.

So do you mind if I ride your thread like a remora on a shark? Wherever he ends up....this is not a desirable trait! And it's not something you can work on easily - if you are away from them...how do you shape behavior? Or maybe it's easy and I am just blown away by the high pitched screeching in my head!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 04/24/12 10:35 PM

Jean, it sounds really similar. I am hoping that she is not freaking when I'm gone. I do think it takes awhile for her to settle after I leave though.

Yesterday(?) When she was so playful and hyper, I think part of it was leftover frantic from the crate.

Jean, I was hoping that you'd tell me what to do!

I did just put her in the kennel while I was doing something about 3 feet away w/o an overreaction. So maybe it's just a slow increase, I don't know! I guess we'll have to figure it out.
Posted by: BasiaBear

Re: Separation Anxiety - 04/24/12 10:46 PM

Does she need to be crated? Will she be destructive? Basia was a stray followed by being caged up in a shelter followed by being in a foster home with 19 other dogs (lots of anxiety there). Her foster parents told me that she could not be crated as she would immediately freak out like crazy, so I never bothered trying it or teaching her that it was okay because I didn't want to spend the money on a crate for nothing. But turns out she doesn't need one. She is non destructive.

Maybe she just has a lot of ill feelings about being caged as a result from her past. It'll take time for her to realize that she is safe with you and that she is in a loving forever home.
Posted by: BasiaBear

Re: Separation Anxiety - 04/24/12 10:50 PM

And also, for me... basia bonded and became loyal to me in a short period of time but it took until now (so about 9-10 months) for her to trust my instincts and my reactions and act accordingly, instead of reacting based off of her uncertainty. Maybe Jazmine is just uncertain?
Posted by: JeanKBBMMMAAN

Re: Separation Anxiety - 04/24/12 11:17 PM

Uh, no, Lisa, no help from me. Unless what I've done is put his crate on wheels so I can drag him from room to room helps you. blush rofl I have to crate and rotate but also like a dog to be used to and be able to settle in their bed for after eating quiet time, and if they, heaven forbid, have to have surgery...

Basia....so sweet. Almost a year!
Posted by: Zisso

Re: Separation Anxiety - 04/24/12 11:18 PM

Danielle has some good points...a lot of it is time to settle in, time to become bonded to you and time to learn to trust you are not going to leave her in a bad way.

Nadia was very much like you and Jean have described. I used a voice activated tape recorder to try to record what was going on when I wasn't home. The problem with that is that it records everything fine, but there is no break in the noises from the dog to know if it was constant or occasional. I tried a LOT of different things with her along the way, but found that she was best behaved if kenneled outside when I was gone.

Once she bonded to me things got better. Training was essential to my sanity. Focusing on her behaviors as much as I did gave me the insight I needed to get through the rough spots.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 04/25/12 01:44 AM

Originally Posted By: BasiaBear
Does she need to be crated? Will she be destructive? Basia was a stray followed by being caged up in a shelter followed by being in a foster home with 19 other dogs (lots of anxiety there). Her foster parents told me that she could not be crated as she would immediately freak out like crazy, so I never bothered trying it or teaching her that it was okay because I didn't want to spend the money on a crate for nothing. But turns out she doesn't need one. She is non destructive.

Maybe she just has a lot of ill feelings about being caged as a result from her past. It'll take time for her to realize that she is safe with you and that she is in a loving forever home.



I think that this is part of it, but being a 6 month old puppy, I don't have many options. She's a bit into exploring everything, and being small, is find all sorts of spots to try to crawl behind (like over the VCR to get to the back where the tv and electrical wiring is!

I would be okay with an xpen, but clearly I can't keep her there either, since she is going to hurt herself.

I'm sure that she is unsure of yourself, you are right!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 04/25/12 01:50 AM

Jean...I need to get me some wheels wink

Bev, the tape recorder is a good idea. I think it would set me at ease, to know that she is settling hopefully soon after I leave. I think with fresh batteries, my digital recorder will record for something like 6 hours. Oh my, I would be afraid to leave her outside kenneled, if just for the noise that she makes, but here we have snakes and stuff that I worry about.

I have a crate that has one of those pheromone calming inserts, and used that today, which seemed a little bit better, but I also moved the crate into this smaller area that we've been staying in, so who knows. Will have to think of what else I might try - I have on order remedies to detox from the vaccinations, so one thing at a time.
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Separation Anxiety - 04/25/12 06:33 AM

When our two were pups, we used an MP3 player to record them when we were gone.
Posted by: shepnterrier

Re: Separation Anxiety - 04/25/12 07:32 AM

My foster puppy, too. The high pitched screaming was unnerving, as was her distress. Patricia McConnell has a neat, short booklet with good advice:
"I'll be home soon"
http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/product/dog-separation-anxiety

Her puppy primer is also excellent:
http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/product/the-puppy-primer
As are all of her books, incl. these short manuals for the busy owner:
http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/category/dog-training-books
If you order from Amazon (Affiliate link), I think if you order 4 you get the 4th one free.

One tool from her book is to give the dog a highly valuable chew treat and then immediately leave. Come back shortly and take the treat away. Lesson: This super treat (marrow bone, extra yummie stuffed Kong, etc) is available only while you are at a distance that triggers the distress response. Be that out of the room, down the hallway, or out of the house.

If you can identify any triggers such as taking the phone or keys, you can desensitize by taking them while rewarding puppy, and then not proceeding to make a call of go out of the door.

With previous dogs I found that building confidence by training can resolve the issue. And lots of playing together always helps bonding. But with the current foster, I have to use more tools.
Posted by: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: Separation Anxiety - 04/25/12 11:44 PM

Lisa I was going to suggest the DAP plug in. Another thought is part of this is visual stimulation, the dogs got all excited in the pound when someone came to look at them and had to compete with all the other dogs for attention. So she sees you and goes back into pound mode. Raya was and can still be that way at times. I am lucky she isn't a chewer because I just throw a sheet over her crate, she is OK if she hears me but when she first came her she would go a bit nuts when she saw me. Now it only happens if she is on overload.

You might want to go to some thrift stores and buy some small kid shirts and just try a t-short on her and see what she does. Like an anxiety wrap.

She also sounds like a good candidate for working some T-Touch on her.

I wouldn't want to not have her crate trained, if you want to do any type of sport the dogs have to be crated.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 04/26/12 01:07 AM

Sarah, thanks for the booklet recommendations. I have a number of hers, but not the specific two that you mentioned. It's been years since I read a training book all the way through - been out of the loop!

Val, I had thought about ordering a thundershirt, then didn't - this was before all this became apparent. Those thundershirts I like in general. I willl have to look at the DAP.

I hadn't thought about the visual aspect of it, and it makes complete sense. As I went back to say goodbye at the shelter, since she had to be spayed the next day, her and her kennel mate were pushing each other out of the way to get higher and to be seen. I should also add that going to a shelter just breaks my heart...

I took her to work today, and she is getting better about not freaking out in the crate in the car, having gone a few places so far where good things happened AND we return here where she goes nuts for awhile, I'm thinking to be relieved that this is where we came back to. It really takes her awhile to "come down" from either me returning, or both of us returning here.

This morning, instead of leaving her in the crate downstairs (that is too large), I am using a borrowed crate for now that is okay length wise, but a touch short for my leggy girl, and I put that outside the bathroom door and I left the door open while I took a shower. She still couldn't see me behind the curtain, but she didn't yelp once, even when I was out and walking down the hall getting dressed and reading, but I couldn't push it too far.

Once I don't have to deal with these spay sutures and cone, hopefully I will be able to leave goodies and rewards to help witb this.

Guess we'll see what happens next...
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Separation Anxiety - 04/26/12 03:09 AM

That booklet is great--that's what I used when I adopted Rafi and he had SA. I was unable to leave him at all b/c he was hurting himself in the crate and I would come home and he was hysterical--drooling, hyperventilating, etc.

He did ok in the back of my truck (probably because he travelled in it for 7 hours from his foster home) so I left him in there for the first couple of months he was with me. In the house I let him follow me everywhere until he learned the stay command. Then I would use the stay command so that he got used to being separated from me for a few minutes in the house.

Once I finished McConnell's protocol Rafi did great. I left him loose and he was fine. I think it took 7 weeks. He has also travelled quite a bit with me and stayed in different houses and does ok now (but he was a little iffy with that at first).

I still don't make a big deal out of comings and goings.
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Separation Anxiety - 04/26/12 05:26 PM

Sometimes I think we are too quick to think SA when maybe it is just a stage or reaction to so many changes.

I also think they pick up on our fears more easily than we think they might. Keep an upbeat and positive attitude and don't be hesitant about leaving Jazzy, whether for a few ours or just to go out of sight for a few minutes.

As Ruth said, make your comings and goings very low key and matter of fact. Especially upon return I would not even make eye contact. Go about your business for a few minutes, going in and out of the room with no words.

After a few minutes it will be like you never left and you can more easily and calmly connect again with Jazzy.

When, leaving give a special treat or toy, tell her "I'll be back soon" and just go. (Repetition is a great teacher as you know - she will learn that "I'll be back" means to settle in and wait for your return.) Assume they she be fine and she probably will be. If she does "scream" when you are out of sight, don't return until it is quiet. Last thing you want to do is make that work for her. rofl

I am not at all discounting real SA. I think that is tragic and the dog must have such fear and need major help. frown

Shelter dogs have so little contact and one on one and may have come very sad pasts - she may just be afraid it will all go away. She will soon learn you are dependable and will trust you to return to her.

Just my 2c
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 04/29/12 12:06 PM

I do think part of the issue is fear that this will all end, and the visual thing that Val brought up is dead on too from my recent observations.

It is a form of separation anxiety, because you can see the sheer panic and anxiety. I will be right there, and she's panting, bug-eyed, drooling - in a sheer state of panic - it isn't pretty at all frown . It is very closely related to being crated or kenneled. Once we get past this, I hate to think how her first stay at the vet's will be...

Yesterday, when doing some yardwork, I put her on a tie out with her new comfort flex harness. I generally don't like tie-outs (Max would bust through them), but she fairly quickly learned where the end of the tie-out was after I work with her to show her (I so worry about them jamming themselves up), and for a long time, stayed at the end just staring at me. However, shortly after, she was off staring at other things, which I consider a huge success. Just to get her away from me physically and fairly content is a pretty step.

When I had to use the cone, I'd come home to the cone half-off. The donut thing somehow ended up in a weird spot on her body, but thankfully that's behind us and I can leave her in the crate with a kong.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety (jazz update) - 05/14/12 12:34 PM

So, while I've been working, and sick, we've made little progress.

I have learned that she has no issues with the crate, she will wander in throughout the day on her own with no problem, but it's a visual thing with me.

I left a recorder on, for the first 50 min she is yelping and crying and rocking and pawing the crate. Then she settles, and repeats this for about 5-7 minutes every 1/2 hour. Some of that quiet time she has a kong which only gets 1/2 empty, she is too stressed I guess. The other part of the time I suspect she is chewing on the bars. She has some scuff marks on her K9's already, and I'm worried about her teeth.

The shower is a good example. I had been crating her. She goes nuts when I go behind the shower curtain. Below, if you can make it out, are the bent bars on top of the kennel from her.
http://pbr47.photobucket.com/albums/f179/other95/Jazwell/IMG-20120514-00279.jpg


I had tried to leave her out of the kennel before, and just keep her in the bathroom area with her treat (then a bully stick), but she couldn't handle it. Once I went behind the curtain, she started with the panic, and at one point was even pawing on the door to get out...

Today we made progress for the first time. I have an antler shaved in half for her which she only gets when I shower. She has a mat upstairs that she knows is hers to get treats on. I put that in the bathroom with the antler. She did freak when I went behind the curtain, but let her peek into the shower a bit and splashed her with water so she understood better. Then she went back to her treat. We had to do that several times, but we managed a successful shower with minimal yipping and no further damage to her teeth.

Of course, as I crated her to leave, she already started chewing on the bars frown

Got the DAP diffuser (damn, just realized I plugged it in upside down headbang ).
Posted by: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: Separation Anxiety (jazz update) - 05/14/12 01:04 PM

Lisa for bar chewers the only thing I found that worked for DeeDee was to secure a piece of Lexan the exact size so it meets up with either the door frame or the crate frame. You don't want any space that a toenail could get hooked on if she paws. Make sure she can't cut herself on the edges or duct tape the edges.

The problem with this is that it cuts down the amount of air, so you have to possibly drill air holes in the crate, spaced so she can't get her teeth hooked in them. Plus I had a small fan that I set up next to the crate to push air into the crate.

She is a smart little cookie and if she ever gets out of a crate by chewing or pulling on the bar area look out. DeeDee was never safe in a wire crate because of her ability to escape, then she figured out how to bend and pull in the heavier chrome doors on a VariKennel. That is when I figured out the Lexan so she couldn't get her teeth on the bars.

Have you tried a body wrap or Thundershirt type item with her. Once DeeDee figured out that the Thundershirt was a nice calming thing she liked it. Again I would use fan to move air to make sure she didn't over heat.

Also Tranquil Tabs or Rescue Remedy.

I had to crate DeeDee for her safety. If I wasn't here and she panicked, she was trying to escape or escape to find me, but no place just escape to run. I have 6 panel oak doors that were decorated by her, one or two window frames that were DeeDee decorated. I always had a fear of her getting out a window or breaking a window.
Posted by: shepnterrier

Re: Separation Anxiety (jazz update) - 05/14/12 02:13 PM

Have faith and keep working on it, she will overcome it. A Kong might not be good enough, have you tried a marrow bone or bully stick? Give it to her, leave it for one minute and then come back and take it away. These super super value things should only be available to her when you are out of sight, never when you are with her.

A sure bet to boost her confidence is training by 'shaping' behaviors. Once they get the knack of it, it is very empowering. Talk to the Chipster about it!

Rescued pups (incl. the one I currently have in training) often have never been alone, there were either with litter mates or shared a kennel at the shelter. Also, it is unlikely that anyone ever took them away from mom and siblings for a few minutes and did good things with them. That practice gets them used early on to some mild stress and to the experience that good things happen when briefly separated from mom and the puppy pile, and yes the world does not come to an end. So frustration tolerance is often a major issue, and they have not had an early experience that they can actually handle the world while alone. Thus confidence boosting training techniques are so important.

Hope finals are over, you can catch up on eating and sleeping, relax, and have fun with your pup!
Posted by: anniej

Re: Separation Anxiety - 05/14/12 03:11 PM

Some homeopathy help - Ignatia 30c am and Pulsatilla 30c for one week - helps release fear of abandoment
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 05/24/12 03:56 PM

Updating!

Annie, thanks for the remedies. Still finishing out the post-rabies protocol, so will have to wait on those, but will definitely keep them on the list.

I think that the DAP helps. She often goes over and smells it? Tried to lick it once? The once time I used it correctly, she did not seem so bad, though I don't know if it was coincidence.

The shower. She's inconsistent - two steps forward, one step backward. Sometimes still freaks and starts pawing at the cabinets and door in a weirdly hysterical fashion, but I telll her to find her treat (bully stick), and then she frantically will chew that. Occassional whining and crying, but slowly getting better.

I was able to leave her in the crate chewing a bully stick, with me visible, for a relatively long time yesterday. Will start working on that, and slowly moving out of sight, now that I'm on summer break. She is frantic though, looks like someone with a weird panic eating disorder crazy

I'm behind the times on training ideas, techniques, theories, etc. Bought the following:
McConnell's I'll Be Home Soon
McDevitt's Control Unleashed Puppy Program
Stewart's Behavior Adjustment Training
Von Reinhardt's Chase! Managing Your Dogs's Predatory Instincts

I'm not so sure about the last book, already saw some advice I disagreed with, but I think I may find some selective tips. The others I've seen recommended on the forum, and I think her apprehension about being separated, at least for her, translates to a larger concern about the world around her.

So, I guess this will be a slow process - I hope that it will be a successful one - sure hate when her eyes get big, shakes, she lip licks and salivates, and just has general fits at the thought of separation.
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Separation Anxiety - 05/24/12 04:44 PM

WDJ just re-published this article on SA: http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/11_7/features/Canine-Separation-Anxiety_16044-1.html?s=FB

Also, the click for calm exercise in this article is a good one: http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/14_5/features/Training-Hyperactive-Dogs_20259-1.html

I bet she is slowly settling in and will improve with each week. I remember that it was a long time before Rafi could stay in the bedroom (with Chama!) while I brushed my teeth without flipping out.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 05/24/12 07:10 PM

Thanks Ruth! I saw those come through, great articles!

Yes, the teeth brushing! Oddly, she *loves* to go to bed (so happy to have a home? She tells me if I am staying up too late!), so about half the time I do get to brush my teeth alone!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 06/20/12 01:04 AM

Just updating a bit....

I started feeding Jazz in the crate, which, I tried doing initially, but that was when I was using the crate that was too large, and somehow forgot to do when I switched crates.

I also started putting a couple of towels in the bed at night, and, after sleeping with them, would leave those in the crate the next day.

Continued to use the DAP diffuser, left a chew toy and two filled Kongs.

It seemed to be getting a little bit better - no urine or vomit when I got home, but whatever I left in the crate was just wet with what I think was a combination of drool and suckling on the cloth. Luckily, she doesn't eat it. One day, there was a hole in one of the towels, and I felt really stupid for leaving it in there, but I found the piece all wadded and spit out, what a smart girl.

But then she had her hernia surgery, and I can't crate her because she can't stress that area (the stress during crating, her panting, etc., was making the hernias pop out it seems), so when she gets done with this surgery recovery, we are back to square one I think frown
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Separation Anxiety - 06/20/12 06:54 AM

Well that is frustrating. frown At least you know what you were doing was working.
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Separation Anxiety - 06/20/12 07:40 AM

You are doing a phenomenal job with Jazz, Lisa! thumbup What a super puppy she is. I love that she doesn't let you stay up too late! rofl You two are going to be a very bonded team. A friend really liked "I
ll Be Home Soon" by Patricia McConnell. Sounds like you have a good plan with Jazzy! I adore seeing her pictures, she's like this glowing sesame color! wub
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 06/20/12 11:38 AM

Thanks guys!

I did read that book, and it helped me start working on a plan - it's really all about making them want to be in the crate with *whatever* than they want to be with you at that moment and making them feel safe about it, and desensitizing the triggers. Problem here, is I have very little routine in summer, and I can't repeat my morning cues throughout the day (I am not taking a shower 20 times a day or making coffee!)

I had her where she would even go in the yard without me for awhile, though I had to leave the back door open, so she could run in and check to make sure I was still here. Seems she Loves the sun, so I was using access to lying in the sun to force her to separate.

Anyway, will be starting again in about 4-7 days.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 06/20/12 04:21 PM

Patti, while I was out walking this morning, looking at her color, I was thinking that the next time I have to fill out her on a form next, I'm going to put "sesame seed" laugh
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Separation Anxiety - 06/20/12 06:17 PM

Sesame Seed! What great name for her color.

Every day Jazzy is learning she can count on you, so maybe it won't be as difficult to get back wehre you as you might think.

One thing I would recommend when she is old enough is to do some agility training. That's a great way to build confidence and learn that distance can be good. It really helped my shy dog Sophie - we never had any intention of competing with her all her fears, but she did learn to run freely and enjoy life a little more.



Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 06/21/12 02:39 AM

Bonnie, I hope you are right about getting back. I can see where she is anxious again around other dogs and poeple, with hackles up, but I think that once she is able to run again and express herself more naturally, I can get her past that.

I think agility would be a great idea, it really helped Indy through some of her fear issues, similar maybe to your Sophie.
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Separation Anxiety - 06/21/12 07:20 AM

We used Nosework to build confidence with Niko. He really loved the work, but he had to leave me to search the course (which was very hard for him). At first he would only range about ten feet from me, but we worked up to him being able to search the whole room without me having to move with him.
Posted by: cassadee7

Re: Separation Anxiety - 06/23/12 09:00 PM

Hi Lisa! I had been reading this thread but didn't want to hijack. But since you invited me, I'll repost about Kira here and see if anyone has thoughts.

thought Saber was a velcro dog, but Kira is a little over the top! I am looking for advice or insight on this, whether I should be handling it differently or what. Given her background of being left in the yard/running the streets almost 24/7 I wonder if she is just SO happy to have a loving home and maybe a little worried she will lose it?

Kira has glued onto me. She loves my kids too but follows me around the house most of the time. When I call Saber, Kira comes too (Saber does not do this if I call Kira). If I am petting Saber, Kira comes and tries to insert herself between us. If I am clipping Saber's nails, Kira tries to shove herself in there and lick me. If I call Saber to sit by me on the couch, Kira jumps up and tries to squeeze into the 3 inch space between us. Saber has been okay with all this, probably because I mainly set Kira aside and give Saber attention and THEN give Kira attention.

Also if I leave Kira cries and cries. I haven't left her alone but one of my teens stays with her and they say she will cry for about 30 minutes after I leave and then she goes to sleep. Actually I did have to leave her alone for 30 min once, and since she is not crate trained (and the crate belongs to Saber) I put Kira in my son's room. I could hear her howling and crying in there as I left (but I HAD to go) but when we got back she had not chewed or destroyed anything at all. *Edited to add: I left her with home with my adult son when I went out of town with Saber and kids for a few days, and he says she was fine and calm after the first 20 minutes or so that I was gone.

Saber sleeps crated, Kira sleeps in my son's room. We have a nice dog bed in there but she insists on sleeping IN bed with him. Even if he puts her on the floor, when he wakes up in the morning she is in his bed. He doesn't mind... Anyway, at night when I put the dogs to bed, Kira's in that bedroom with my son and she whines and cries and scratches the door for like 20 minutes before she settles down. She also whines and cries and scratches the door in the morning when she hears me get up.

We have a babygate at the top of the stairs but if I go downstairs Kira busts through it to get to me. Saber respects the gate and looks at Kira like she is nuts.

If I go in the yard Kira cries and howls and goes on like she is being tortured.

So far, I have tried desensitizing her to me going downstairs or her going in my son's room, just going in there for a few minutes with treats or going downstairs and tossing her treats if she is relatively calm.

Thoughts? Am I doing the right thing by ignoring the whining and scratching? And I also worry about her sanity if I do rehome her.
Posted by: SunCzarina

Re: Separation Anxiety - 06/23/12 11:00 PM

Lisa, I'm trying to get caught back up with everyone here and wow, you've got a rescue pup and a half!

Agility was awesome for Morgan when she was a shattered little rescue.

Tethering her to me when I worked in the yard worked well for our bonding. She knew where I was and I knew she wasn't eating anything. LOL consequence of that was that now that Moon is old, she still doesn't want me to go to the compost pile without her. She opens the gate so she can come hang out on the front yard with me.

If Jazz likes the sun, pull up a book under an umbrella and just let her relax with you. Moonie always loves girl time, laying there on the hot bluestone just being with me with nothing to be concerned about.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 06/23/12 11:11 PM

Originally Posted By: cassadee7
Hi Lisa! I had been reading this thread but didn't want to hijack. But since you invited me, I'll repost about Kira here and see if anyone has thoughts.

thought Saber was a velcro dog, but Kira is a little over the top! I am looking for advice or insight on this, whether I should be handling it differently or what. Given her background of being left in the yard/running the streets almost 24/7 I wonder if she is just SO happy to have a loving home and maybe a little worried she will lose it?

Kira has glued onto me. She loves my kids too but follows me around the house most of the time. When I call Saber, Kira comes too (Saber does not do this if I call Kira). If I am petting Saber, Kira comes and tries to insert herself between us. If I am clipping Saber's nails, Kira tries to shove herself in there and lick me. If I call Saber to sit by me on the couch, Kira jumps up and tries to squeeze into the 3 inch space between us. Saber has been okay with all this, probably because I mainly set Kira aside and give Saber attention and THEN give Kira attention.

Also if I leave Kira cries and cries. I haven't left her alone but one of my teens stays with her and they say she will cry for about 30 minutes after I leave and then she goes to sleep. Actually I did have to leave her alone for 30 min once, and since she is not crate trained (and the crate belongs to Saber) I put Kira in my son's room. I could hear her howling and crying in there as I left (but I HAD to go) but when we got back she had not chewed or destroyed anything at all. *Edited to add: I left her with home with my adult son when I went out of town with Saber and kids for a few days, and he says she was fine and calm after the first 20 minutes or so that I was gone.

Saber sleeps crated, Kira sleeps in my son's room. We have a nice dog bed in there but she insists on sleeping IN bed with him. Even if he puts her on the floor, when he wakes up in the morning she is in his bed. He doesn't mind... Anyway, at night when I put the dogs to bed, Kira's in that bedroom with my son and she whines and cries and scratches the door for like 20 minutes before she settles down. She also whines and cries and scratches the door in the morning when she hears me get up.

We have a babygate at the top of the stairs but if I go downstairs Kira busts through it to get to me. Saber respects the gate and looks at Kira like she is nuts.

If I go in the yard Kira cries and howls and goes on like she is being tortured.

So far, I have tried desensitizing her to me going downstairs or her going in my son's room, just going in there for a few minutes with treats or going downstairs and tossing her treats if she is relatively calm.

Thoughts? Am I doing the right thing by ignoring the whining and scratching? And I also worry about her sanity if I do rehome her.


Are you going to work on crate training her?

I would leave her with something tasty to do when you leave her alone.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 06/23/12 11:12 PM

Originally Posted By: SunCzarina
Lisa, I'm trying to get caught back up with everyone here and wow, you've got a rescue pup and a half!

Agility was awesome for Morgan when she was a shattered little rescue.

Tethering her to me when I worked in the yard worked well for our bonding. She knew where I was and I knew she wasn't eating anything. LOL consequence of that was that now that Moon is old, she still doesn't want me to go to the compost pile without her. She opens the gate so she can come hang out on the front yard with me.

If Jazz likes the sun, pull up a book under an umbrella and just let her relax with you. Moonie always loves girl time, laying there on the hot bluestone just being with me with nothing to be concerned about.


Thanks Jen, yes, I've got my hands full.....

I find that she loves the sun so much, that I can use that to encourage her to be away from me, or at least until her surgery. I hope ultimately to do something like agility with her, or, whatever we have around here that suits her, as Leah was noting above.

Need opinions on this....

I was leaving her in the crate with a towel or shirt that was on the bed the previous night. I thought it was helping, but maybe I was wrong, it would be soaked with saliva when I returned.

I was talking with the trainer yesterday, and she said one goal is to make her forget, so leaving her with something scented was exactly the wrong thing to do.

Input?
Posted by: cassadee7

Re: Separation Anxiety - 06/24/12 02:14 AM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa

Are you going to work on crate training her?

I would leave her with something tasty to do when you leave her alone.


I don't think so. Aside from the craziness when I first leave, she is just so good in the house, no destructiveness at all. She doesn't get into anything. I also think Saber feels her crate is her 'den' and she would not like Kira going in there. I have another crate but it is all wire and I can imagine Kira bending bars like your pics show, or hurting her nails or teeth. Saber has to be crated when I go out or she will dissect every item she can reach. She is really good at turning large objects into millions of very tiny objects.

I am intriducing Kira to bones and chews and such. I think she never had anything like that before. She isn't sure what to do with them. I sit and hold them for her and she will chew a bit. But she is nothing like Saber, she has very little interest in food outside her regular meals (which she inhales).

Do you think her anxiety will decrease naturally over time, as she sees I always come back? Maybe it is because she is new here?
Posted by: frillint

Re: Separation Anxiety - 06/24/12 11:42 AM

Chief isn't that bad when I'm gone, but when I'm home he follows me 24/7 and I mean all the time if I adjust myself on the couch he is up immediately right next to me. It's okay sometimes, but it gets annoying then when I make him lay down he will normally get up twice then I will reset him and he will lay there, but when I tell him to lay down he acts like I smacked him, I understand him more now that the persons daughter that I got him from told meeting his full story yesterday.
Posted by: cassadee7

Re: Separation Anxiety - 06/24/12 12:54 PM

Progress! Yesterday I was going downstairs with the dogs behind the baby gate, where Kira usually breaks through etc. I just kept talking to them, went halfway down and returned. Today I got all the way out of sight, into the laundry room with them at the top of the stairs as I kept saying "wait, good girls!" and Kira did not whine or dig the gate. When I came back they both got treats!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 06/24/12 04:19 PM

That's good, sounds like it's not full on SA then, which is a relief smile
Posted by: SunCzarina

Re: Separation Anxiety - 06/25/12 12:17 AM

Where is her crate when you're not home? There may be something to the scent thing but not something she can actually have. With Morgan, there was NO PEACE when her crate was in the kitchen. So I moved it upstairs to my office, where she really liked to hang out with me (still loves that room, even though it's my daughters now.) She didn't quite 'get over it' until her crate ended up in my bedroom.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 06/25/12 05:46 PM

Still pondering about the scent thing.

Need to think about the crate. It's in a room that is close to where we spend most of our time, but not in it, so maybe moving it in that room might help, I'm not sure, but certainly will try it.

I almost think she would do much better if I left her in the yard, she loves to slay and smell and watch. I left Indy in the yard during when she was young, but we have rattle snakes sometimes and that worries me. Now that she's bigger, I don't worry about the birds of prey so much wink

She doesn't mind the crate itself, she will go in there and sniff and look for things (leftover food or toys), as long as I am there.

With the new crate, I bought the liner before the crate, out of convenience and cheaper price. She played on and with the liner a bit before the crate came. Turns out that was good! When the new wire crate came, and I put the liner in there, she walked right in. Whe will play with a toy in there, or dig at the liner. I have been keeping both doors open.

Hopefully we will get an all clear soon, and start back up with some desensitization, etc.
Posted by: SeanRescueMom

Re: Separation Anxiety - 06/28/12 11:38 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
Need to think about the crate. It's in a room that is close to where we spend most of our time, but not in it, so maybe moving it in that room might help, I'm not sure, but certainly will try it.


Lisa, you know her best and what works for Jazz. When we adopted Sean at 1 y.o. we learned quickly that he hated the wire crate but we had to leave him crated otherwise he would destroy the furniture cushions, etc. The crate was more for his safety. We switched to the pet porter airline crate and he liked it much better, more like a den for him. Fortunately it worked and we did not have any more problems. Also, we put the crate in our family room because that is where we spent most of our time. In fact, 13 years later it's still in the family room, we didn't have the heart to remove it and he still goes in it with the door left open.
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Separation Anxiety - 06/29/12 12:47 AM

I haven't tried Rafi in a crate since I did the desensitization thing. He does fine in the back of the truck though and that is like a giant crate on wheels. His SA is not completely gone. Last week when we were in Cincinnati I would come home and find wet spots around the room from him drooling. Poor guy. The worst was when I forgot to close one of the bedroom doors and he was upstairs when I got home. He was so upset b/c I think he expected to find me up there when he let himself out of the bedroom. He is not destructive though, just anxious.

They are making Happy Traveller treats now: http://www.arknaturals.com/p/136/happy-traveler-bite-size-soft-chews

I bought a bag of them. I've used the capsules and they work well to take the edge off. The treats seem like a great thing to have around!

And every dog is different: Rafi HATES being outside alone but Chama loved it. In fact, when I went to work I had to leave Basu in the house (he was too anxious outside and barked a lot) and Chama outside.

Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 07/21/12 07:56 PM

I haven't updated this in awhile...

Happy Traveler, I had bought a different mix, but she vomited the day I used it, and I haven't tried it again, might have been a coincidence since she vomits with anxiety too...

I moved her crate into the area right where we spnd more time and she can see the TV and I have left her with the tv on instead of the radio, which I think is better, I have caught her watching at times outside of the crate.

Melatonin helps, but it makes her overall sleepy and I do not like using it regularly during the day.

We have made progress thought for I think 3 reasons.

First is what I call the Crate and Kong game. Giving her a high valued treat only when she was in the crate for increasing periods of time really just seemed to create an eating disorder. The only thing that worked was bully sticks, and even that, she ate in this frenzied way and it wasn't working. So I made it into an interaxctive game. I was afraid it would backfire actually, and I still think it could have.

Basically, she gets a treat when she comes to me out of the crate. I started by sitting in front of the door, putting her in with a kong filled with kibble (a treat for her as she is not fed kibble), closed to door for about 5 seconds, opened and rewarded. Rinse, lather, and repeat, using longer intervals, using the "go find" command for the treat filled kong.

Once she learned to get the kong I order for the crate door to open and get her treat, I was able to stand up and start moving away from the crate in very tiny increments. When she gets out, she has to go over to the table, sit, and receive her treat. To be honest, I was thinking I was going to create additional anxiety, her waiting to be let out, but nothing else was working.

By day three, I was able to start going out in the garage, and even opening and closing the garage door, though I still wasnk( leaving her in the crate for too long. The difference was she was flying into the crate to play, wasn't wimpering when I was out of sight, and not biting and chewing at the bars or the side. I even had to go outside and find and throw away a dead bat, and was able to put her in the crate (talking to her through the window), and she did, well, okay.

So, the idea was to replace feelings of anxiety in the crate with positive feelings and if you can get them through the first 10 minutes or so, that SA book mentioned above says that is over half the battle.

We didn't get up to 10 minutes, Dad got sick, and I had to leave her with sister quite a bit. Sister handles her well, able to "talk jazz down" when she's about to panic. Also spent a couple of days at training with her in the crate, but near, which really helped.

So, I had to leave her in the crate in the car for several hours for several days in the row, and she didn't cry or wimper when I left, which is HUGE.

We haven't licked this yet, and I still haven't crated her at home with me leaving for awhile, just worried about her until the hernia is fized, but there is definite progress.

I would not have thought the Crate and Kong would have worked - seems like it would make one type of anxiety worse, but so far, it's doing okay. It's even teaching her to bring me the kong when she gets out of the crate, which is nice if that can continue, something for her to concentrate on when I get home and let her out rather than focusing on freaking out into wild abandon - that part there still isn't much progress, and perhaps that might not get better with this game. Not sure.

But so far, better than peeing and vomiting from extreme anxiety with the thought of being in her crate.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety/Crate Games DVD - 07/27/12 06:32 PM

Has anyone used these concepts or seen this DVD?

http://www.dogwise.com/itemdetails.cfm?ID=DTA287

Thoughts?
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/21/12 07:57 PM

We haven't really had time to work on the crate issue, because of her hernia issues.

Had to leave her for about 5 hours on monday. Took her for a walk before, got her really tired, gave her a double dose of Happy Traveler, and, all-in-all, I was slightly encouraged.

So today, getting ready to take her to the vet, she starts yipping when I get in the shower, shaking some, guess she's getting ready to be left frown I'm sure that she was happy to find that wasn't the case!

When we got home, I had to run a package up to the post office, so I left her in the crate with a kong, and was gone about 20 minutes maybe.

She was drenched in drool when I got home, it was terrible. This is going to be really rough. I'm not sure if the pic does this justice, but, the shiny stuff in the bottom is drool. You can see it pooling in the ridge in the front of the crate. At the back, you can see white, which is more pooling of drool, and not all of it is showing up in the pic. I've never seen so much before, and she's so small. Poor thing, I hope we can get past this. All the operations and everything this summer really messed us up.

I can't seem to get it rotated, so it's sideways, lol, seems like the drool should all be running downward!


Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/22/12 05:19 AM

Oh no, the poor girl frown I wish I had some suggestions hugging Do you know anyone with a bird they could lend you? Random but I wonder if she would feel not so alone with a noisy parrot or something.
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/22/12 07:06 AM

Oh wow, she must have been really upset. frown
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/22/12 07:53 AM

That seems from the pic to be a lot of drool. Grimm leaves a big amount of drool too, and all he does is sleep in the crate when I'm away. But, he's a bigger dog that she is. Basicly, am wondering if the drool is SA or normal, just a bit excessive? Has she got any digestive issues? Maybe that's the cause of the amount of drool?

Lisa, you've been pretty occupied managing her hernia stuff and recoveries. Maybe now you'll have a bit more ability to work on the SA and throw at it all that you can think of. I'm hoping others share ideas and experiences. I like the Happy Traveller, and it's good that she holds it down well. Maybe Annie might have homeopathy suggestions?

I know Jazz is getting other therapies right now, but what about acupuncture to help her find her sense of calm overall, and increase her ability to feel centered and resilient? Just a thought. peacesign
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/22/12 01:39 PM

Thank you ladies?

Bianca, no birds frown She will do that even if she's crated and I'm in the same room. It's very frustrating, and sad. If the door is open, she has no problems going in to get things.

Now that she's better, I need to feed her in there again. I completely forgot until now! I didn't want her running and jumping in, so I had stopped doing that.

Patti, she never drool at any other time, though the vet did mention that the puffy lymph glands I sometimes feel might be salivary glands, so I'm watching to see if there is a pattern with eating. Good idea, I'm not sure I would have related the two. Digestive is okay, still recovering from the convenia shot I think.

I need to go back in the thread and look for anniej's homeopathic recommendations, now that thing are more focused here. I ordered a mix of Bach remedies that were mucle tested for her, and they should be coming soon. I've been thinking about contacting a communicator, but I am just not thinking straight right now, I hate going back to work when my brain hasn't had time to regroup fro the new year.
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/22/12 01:57 PM

Rafi drooled like that except there was a GIANT puddle outside the crate (wire crate). I did not counter-condition him to the crate; I counter-conditioned him to be left out of the crate. I actually have not crated him since I got him and discovered the SA.

He does still drool a tiny bit when I'm gone sometimes, especially if we're away from home, but he doesn't tear things up or get hysterical.

I hope you can get Jazz through this! It was so sad to see what a wreck Rafi was when I got home and such a relief when he improved.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/22/12 02:02 PM

Ruth, how old was rafi when you adopted him?

I don't really care if she's crate trained at this point, but I worry about what she might get into in the house, she can be a bit of a tasmanian devil, and still is putting everything into her mouth.
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/22/12 02:07 PM

Rafi was between 1 and 1.5 and he was destructive in his crate (or even in the back of my truck, initially) but not out of it. He was destroying things because of the anxiety...once I got that under control he didn't touch anything while I was gone.

I wonder if you could pen her into a safe area? Rafi definitely had barrier anxiety on top of the SA.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/22/12 02:19 PM

Same here with the barrier anxiety.

She haas had the drool outside the crate too, I keep the crate on a waterproof pad because of that. Sometimes it oaks into that and I can't tell how much was outside the crate.

I am so frustrated and upset that I didn't get to do this right this summer and we're in the same place that we started the summer with this.

Small progress, there was no blood on the crate, no vomit, no urine. At training, I was able to put her in her wire crate and walk quite a distance from her without stress. Some things are better, but not enough!
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/22/12 06:13 PM

Did I tell you about those Happy Traveller treats? They work great for Kailor!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/22/12 06:45 PM

Yes, you did! That's one reason I bought the Happy Traveller when I found them here, though they are capsules. Until I'm sure that I have her diet down, I think I will tick with thoe (<=== ugh, my "s" key has not been working well!).

I think I will puppy proof a living area here and try that. We are used to living around the xpens because of the surgery, so maybe if the area includes a living area, it will be workable, a regular xpen does not work.

Tomorrow I have a mtg to go to, so I think I'm stuck with the crate, and then starting friday will do some frequent conditioning for Monday.
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/23/12 11:15 AM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa

..... we're in the same place that we started the summer with this.
....


Except that you and Jazz are firmly bonded and have a strong basis on which to build her confidence in her surrondings, even in your absence.

Of course, you know infinitely more about this than I do, I just wanted to point out the obvious progress made, despite all those medical interruptions.

Mary Jane
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/23/12 11:46 AM

Originally Posted By: Mary Jane
Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa

..... we're in the same place that we started the summer with this.
....


Except that you and Jazz are firmly bonded and have a strong basis on which to build her confidence in her surrondings, even in your absence.

Of course, you know infinitely more about this than I do, I just wanted to point out the obvious progress made, despite all those medical interruptions.

Mary Jane


Thank you Mary Jane, I appreciate that. It's just tough. Not looking forward to today.

Maybe this summer will make leaving her in a restricted area easier, maybe!
Posted by: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/23/12 03:00 PM

Lisa, just a thought...

Do you think that maybe the anesthesia from the surgeries has played a role here?

History: when I had DeeDee spayed she was a real wreck after surgery. A few years later she had to have a tooth removed and I saw some of the same stuff as after the spay, but not as bad. Lakota was a multiple anesthesia dog when he was younger and I had problems with his digestive system after that.

I think that dogs can have various reactions to anesthesia. It took a good 6 weeks or more until DeeDee was some what normal after her spay. Some of it was IMHO hormone and part anesthesia.

Hoping things get better for Jazz and you both.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/23/12 11:47 PM

Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val
Lisa, just a thought...

Do you think that maybe the anesthesia from the surgeries has played a role here?

History: when I had DeeDee spayed she was a real wreck after surgery. A few years later she had to have a tooth removed and I saw some of the same stuff as after the spay, but not as bad. Lakota was a multiple anesthesia dog when he was younger and I had problems with his digestive system after that.

I think that dogs can have various reactions to anesthesia. It took a good 6 weeks or more until DeeDee was some what normal after her spay. Some of it was IMHO hormone and part anesthesia.

Hoping things get better for Jazz and you both.


Val, thank you, and the anesthesia definitely could be compounding this, I hadn't thought of the anethesia component.

He showed signs of this at the shelter when I left that first day actually, now that I think about it. We had spent quite a bit of time together while I was trying to decide what to do, and when I went back to say goodbye, she was already starting to some degree, and I'm sure all the subsequent drugs have not helped.

I found anniej's recommendation:

Quote:
Homeopathy help - Ignatia 30c am and Pulsatilla 30c for one week - helps release fear of abandoment.

This morning I gave her a double dose of HT, one about 5x min before I leabve, one when I leave, and did give her some ignatia 30c (couldn't remember the second remedy at the time). Two small puppy kongs and a small ball full of "stuff". Crate was nearly dry when I came home, which is good, but a double dose zombifies her for awhile frown Better than the alternative I guess.

I *finally* found a toy she likes enough play with instead of continuing to freak out when I come home. She only gets this when I return. I would prefer it weren't something with dye in it, but she picked it out herself smile The squeek in it will sometimes make her cry (whine?) crazy




And a few "just because" laugh


Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/24/12 06:37 AM

She is so cute with her homecoming toy.

How sad that being alone is so difficult for her. I hope the Ignatia and Pulsatilla help her.
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/24/12 07:13 AM

GAAAAAAAAHHH!! I was right-- she IS getting cuter! wub Lisa, maybe she's chatting back at her toy when the weenie dog squeaks at her? rofl

It sounds like with less drool, that she is improving a bit, what do you think?

GI issues and anesthesia, as Val mentions, indeed can play a role. After a knee surgery, I couldn't hear. No idea why. It took time for my hearing to return, about a day or so. We never know how anesthesia will affect a dog, so we may have a wait for those after effects to wear off.

Honestly, maybe some zombie right now is not a bad thing. HT is pretty natural stuff. bloomrose A friend's vet successfully did the zombie med thing for her cat during a rough transition after a move, and he went from being a physical mess, to being healthy, even after weaning him from the zombie meds. Even in the James Herriot books, Herriot did something similar for a poodle, I think, suffering from nerve/GI issues. In part, I think the zombie-calm helps stop the tension-cycle, but I also think it creates a new emotional memory of a situation. The new emotional memory "I remember that I feel ho-hum calm peacesign when Mom's gone..." is better than thinking "When she's gone, I remember I've felt scared before."

You are doing the natural route as much as anyone can, with the Ignatia and Pulsatilla, and everything else that you are doing. I think her sleepyness is a positive thing as you get through this hump, and move towards a future without SA. crossedfingers
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/24/12 07:19 AM

Oh,just oh wub wub wub Miss Jazzy has brightened my day wub
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/24/12 02:12 PM

Oh my gosh that last pic...she looks like people!!! Seriously, such a human expression on her sleeping face. wub

Wish I had any advice on the anxiety thing. frown Sounds like it's just a very long, slow process.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/24/12 02:59 PM

Thank you for the support, we both appreciate it!

Leah, in some ways, she is the most "human" dog I've had, it's weird crazy

Patti, yes, I think zombie land for awhile when school starts, to get us over the hump, is going to be the plan. "A new emotional memory" is a great way to put that.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/27/12 11:26 AM

If/when you have time to spare, good thoughts for Jazmine please, this is the beginning of a very tough week for her.
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/27/12 11:43 AM

Yes ma'am, many angelic thoughts for Jazzy flowing west with the sun. To tell you the truth, it's impossible to have anything but good thoughts about Jazmine. There is so much person in that small package.

Mary Jane
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/27/12 11:48 AM

Many, many positive, calming thoughts flowing out for Jazzy. Beaming positive vibes of soothing dreams in her safe, comfy hidey-hole crate den. So snug and relaxed. Peaceful energy flowing out to Jazzy for this week. peacesign butterfly
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/27/12 12:19 PM

Sending calming vibes out across the country to sweet Jazz!
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/27/12 04:41 PM

Sending prayers for peace and calm for Ms. Jazzy.
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/27/12 06:17 PM

Jazz - if you can stay calm for a day or two, you will realize Mom comes back every day.

Stay calm and you will begin to feel the routine and might like it. Ok - tolerate it anyway.

hugging
Posted by: JeanKBBMMMAAN

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/27/12 10:00 PM

Oh Jazz...I hope you will be okay and kind of get used to the routine of it all.

At the home visit yesterday, I met their 12 yo rescue JRT who has been seen at Cornell for behavioral issues, including SA, plus now he has dementia. His comes with aggression - they warned me - do NOT pick up your keys or he will attack you. I thought yeah, okay, then they picked him up to put him in the house and it was like a demon possession.

Anyway - he loves routine, has wrecked all crates including a specially made one, and now they have him, from a suggestion from the behavioral vet - in what they call his "Man Cave." There are 2 - one in the basement near their indoor training stuff so he can watch that, and one in a bedroom for nighttime (he is also a bit incontinent and wears a diaper in the house - but he's happy, otherwise healthy and loves people - until they try to leave!). I can ask where they got them - the one in the bedroom is kind of like a crib with a blanket on top and he loves it. He also loves the basement set up - there is a cat bed with that hood on it for him to crawl into and hide. He doesn't try to ruin it, or wreck it. They leave the TV on for him. They are lucky that he can hang with grandma too, but they have to be careful about that because of his aggression.

I thought it was an interesting solution to a lifelong issue that is no longer an issue! Now there's just the rest of the stuff. wink

Big hugs to little Jazz, anxiety sucks.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/28/12 12:31 AM

Jean, how are the "man caves" different than regular crates?

If the door is open, she has no issue with it. In fact, she was just in there now licking the side of the crate, probably from "stuff", when she was chewing it today - there are new scrapings and her gums were a bit irritated when I looked earlier.

I am hoping it doesn't escalate each day as she anticipates what is going on. (It must be tough each day to really feel like you are being "left".) If it as was today, a little drool, a little panic, the HT herbal is doing a pretty good job of knocking her out. I am hoping she will learn rather than panic.

Thank you for the thoughts, I am sure they help, and I hope to have some positive things to report relatively soon.

Oh, not surprising, the command "wait", as I move away from her, is awfully hard for her. I am trying to work on that as part of this.

She had her first cat chase today while I was getting ready to mow the lawns tonight - I am in trouble, she loved it smile
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/28/12 02:50 AM

Chasing the cat burns off some nervous energy....can you let her do it every morning before you leave laugh

I'm sending all my calming soothing thoughts to sweet Miss Jazmine. I wish I has some good advice hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/28/12 11:08 AM

Originally Posted By: bianca
Chasing the cat burns off some nervous energy....can you let her do it every morning before you leave laugh

rofl She would love that!
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/28/12 11:23 AM

Instead if a cat, maybe get her .....a Roomba! laugh rofl
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/28/12 11:38 AM

http://dogtv.com/lp/signup?gclid=CMW9o43TirICFQJx4AodUl0AXA#/?SID=153

$9.99 a month

Who knows? thinking

MJ
Posted by: Woodreb

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/28/12 12:13 PM

It might work for Jazz, but dogtv would drive Caleb nuts. You should see him whenever any animal comes on our TV - commercial, show, it doesn't matter. He's at the TV front and center trying to get to the animal he sees.
Posted by: JeanKBBMMMAAN

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/28/12 07:57 PM

I think it's the room that they are in and how it's set up. It was very quiet and cave like. Except for the TV, unless someone is in the basement (and then he's fine) it is very quiet. The bedroom set up was dark, quiet. I can ask them what the criteria for the cave was.
Posted by: middleofnowhere

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/28/12 08:00 PM

The Whole Dog Journal issue that was in my mail today has an extensive article on this. Takes a while to say the least.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/28/12 10:30 PM

Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere
The Whole Dog Journal issue that was in my mail today has an extensive article on this. Takes a while to say the least.


Found it, thanks middle: http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/15_9/features/Severe-Canine-Separation-Anxiety_20605-1.html

I have to confess, it made me cry, and I am so sad that I missed my opportunity this summer because of hospitals and surgeries, and now find myself in this situation with work frown

I am fortunate, she was not as severe as it could be, and she is better than she was. I hope she can get better while being left alone and not having ability to desensitize properly.

feelingblue
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/28/12 10:34 PM

Originally Posted By: Mary Jane


This makes me smile smile

I was going to start a thread and ask, "What channel?"

What should I leave on the tv? Or what do you leave on the radio?

For the radio, I use light pop or a dog classical music CD. Some classical appears to annoy her ears. Ex used to think Max like hard rock, I used to disagree - I thought that was a bit funny, but felt sorry for Max listening to loud music hour after hour (small spurts okay?)

For the tv, I've been leaving on USA - seems like it's either Law and Order or NCIS, and I figured the conversation is background noise. Don't like the energy of the news, and who knows what she would be exposed to during the day with somethign like Animal Planet!
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/29/12 07:28 AM

Both TV and radio issue staccato bursts of random & varying sound and TV has flickering images. They might seem like "company" for lonely, bored people, but I wonder if the flashing, flaring light from the TV, and the unpredictable, random, changing sounds might stimulate a dog who I'd want to relax. Just thinking that I'd wanna create a "sleepy-comfy" vibe. tired peacesign

When Grimm was a puppy, I'd close the blinds when I left the house, making it seem sleepy, and I put the stanky clothes hamper sick near his crate as the clothes within had my scent.

Continuing to send out good thoughts for whatever will work to help Miss Jazzy mellow out and feel sleepy-comfy while you are away! butterfly
Posted by: middleofnowhere

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/29/12 08:22 AM

Not exactly the same thing but leaving a TV playing in the hotel/motel masked all the sounds (like flushing toilets, doors slamming) and led to no alarm barking. Another thing to consider is one of the noise radios or machines. There is a white noise setting, usually shore, farm & woodland, to choose from. These mask outside noises pretty well.

NPR is what I have on when I am home, it is what I have on when I leave. (my dogs don't have S.A. issues) I would think that having the environment pretty much the same would be helpful. It would avoid giving her a clue that you were leaving, too.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/29/12 12:50 PM

NPR isn't consistent on the radio I use. Maybe I will have to set up a different one closer to her. Today I switched to radio, and I do have a machine that has a hearbeat on it, no white noise though. I hope it doesn't annoy her.

Blinds are closed. I give a HT capsule when we get up, before I hower, etc., otherwise she just starts shaking early. After I am ready, I give breakfast, another HT capsule, go for. Walk for about 15 minutes, and then it's time.

As expected, this morning is worse than monday because she is expecting what is to come.

I think I will work on desensitizing out of the crate, since there is no hope for the crate at this particular point in time.

I find I'm really grumpy this week, I think this is really weighing on me.
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/29/12 01:24 PM

Mine listen to NPR and sometimes the CBC. I don't think Rafi cares one way or the other though. I haven't noticed he's happier alone with or without the radio.
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/29/12 01:41 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa

I find I'm really grumpy this week, I think this is really weighing on me.


I can imagine how stressful it must be. I just read the Whole Dog Journal article and it's pretty sobering. It's awful to think of the suffering SA can cause. Of course you hurt when Jazz hurts.

I'm fumbling for something hopeful to say. That has to be that you are fully commited to helping Jazz through this. Somehow, her youth and her phenomenal curiousity and creativity must (eventually) be advantages in finding some peace by herself.

Happy Return Home,
MJ
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/29/12 02:01 PM

I understand the stress so well. I was a nervous wreck driving him back from Cincinnati because although he was in the back of the truck with Chama he was shrieking, panting, throwing up, drooling, etc. I thought to myself, "OMG, he has SA!" When I stopped to walk the dogs he came out hysterical and I felt terrible b/c I had to put him back in.

The two times I left him crated in my bedroom (for 2 hours each time) he went completely nuts and when I got home he was hysterical. I had never seen a dog so upset and I had fostered, owned or done long term care for probably 25 dogs by then. I would bring him downstairs and he'd lie down on his bed and fall asleep and then he would have terrible nightmares and continue with the SA behavior in his sleep. feelingblue

I remember that I tried leaving him crated the first night while I went to brush my teeth and he started shrieking, banging his head against the crate, etc. I gave up and let him sleep on the dog futon next to Chama and he was nervous but quiet.

He still has mild SA but it is completely and totally linked to me. If I am around and he can't get to me he has trouble settling, even when someone is there that he knows very, very well. When I'm gone he will settle after a while and then he attaches to whoever is there.

Have you started the counter-conditioning protocol at all? Like you, I was unable to do the protocol without adapting it. I did get him somewhat acclimated to my truck so that I could leave him in there when I was teaching, etc. and he was calm enough in there not to shriek or self-mutilate (although he did chew up his Sense-ation harness the first day). I did the desensitization exercises every day and I remember sitting out in my truck in the freezing cold (it was winter) waiting for 10 minutes to be up!

And I still am very low key in my comings and goings. I usually wait 30 minutes after I am home to pay him any real attention. And Rafi is a very cuddly dog but I still don't coddle him, even though he loves it so much. I worry that it will make his SA worse.



Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/29/12 08:17 PM

Sigh, as I suspected, worse than monday because she had monday to remember as a reference. Two more days until the weekend. She fully understands what being left alone is, I hope, as bonnie mentioned earlier, she can be calm enough now to learn that I always come home and our life resumes.

She needed a bath when I got home, she was all wet - I think saliva. I haven't cleaned out the kennel yet, just don't have the energy.

So, a bath, a quick walk, some time outside, walked around whining a bit, drank a ton of water, and now crashed, making jerky motions, working things out while she sleeps.

I had started the counter-conditioning and it was progressing okay (slow, but I gues that's the way it goes), but then she had to have surgery #2 of the summer, and I had to be with her to keep her from re-herniating. We are still on hernia watch, but at least she is about 6(?) weeks out from that now. Unlike the person in the article, I don't have the resources to keep her from being alone while doing this - I missed that opportunity this summer.

I hope to desensitize, starting this weekend, to her being out of the crate, hoping that alone in the crate will mean something different to her than alone not in the crate. I have *no* idea if this will work.

Thank you for the support, this is just hard and there is no quick fix.

Oh, I think I will go back to tv than radio, I just think it's better, but I may be imagining things.
Posted by: Schnickle Fritz

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/29/12 11:46 PM

so sorry to read about this ... i have nothing to add. i had a houndy mix dog who never ever could be left alone. he chewed out of metal crates, plastic crates, ate blinds, pushed out screens, broke windows , ate fences, jumped fences, dug under fences, etc.... just to be free... he was fixed so he was not trying to breed he would break out of where ever he was to go and find someone to be with. he was 12 when he died and he never changed...
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/30/12 04:50 AM

Sending both of you some much needed calming thoughts hugging hugging

I think Jean mentioned the dark, can you try closing the curtains so it may be more den like?
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/31/12 05:12 AM

I sure hope she changes!

Blinds are already drawn because of the heat during the day.

Switching around some supplements to see if there is any difference.

A "snuggle bed" (sitting on an old magnetic mattress pad that was max's), she love it, she's trying to hide from having to face the crate



More blood frown , thus experimenting with supplements
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/31/12 05:47 AM

What, where is the blood from? Oh this just sucks frown hugging

But oh my gosh how adorable is she hiding wub wub
Posted by: middleofnowhere

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/31/12 08:21 AM

Have you tried no crate? I know you are worried she will chew on wires (unplug your TV etc before you leave) or otherwise get into "trouble". Maybe make a few more of those snuggle beds.
How much room do you have for incremental absences? Can you do a few 5 minute ones, working up a bit? At least for a trial to see if no crate is going to work?
Remember we didn't used to use crates at all.

One other question - When you are home is she engaged with you all the time? Maybe a little less engagement??
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/31/12 10:55 AM

The blood is from trying to chew to get out frown

Middle, I am working on desenitizing out of the crate. I haven't readied the area for an extended absence, but I can walk out the door and count to 5 and return without a fit, though there is still concern. But that' with her knowing I'm not really leaving at this point. But it's something to build on.

The snuggle bed, I still sometimes have to stop her from using it as a chew toy, so being a puppy is adding to the difficulty here - there are still some puppy things I have trouble with even when I'm home!

Oh, I forgot to mention, when I'm home, she doen't appear to be over attached - doesn't come near the way these GSDs can be. I was reading an article about a study the other day - appears that this I not from ome weird over-bonding. In Jazz's case, I suspect it's about being abandoned so young on the streets and/or being separated from the litter too early. But I till haven't done enough reading on it.

TGIF.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/31/12 01:27 PM

Freezing kibble in broth in the kong - one of the suggestions from the vet (I emailed a couple of my vets to see if they had any magic bullets).

Stupid question, how do you freeze broth in the kong? I'm guessing sit it upright, with small hole at the bottom, and plug that hole with something? I have some nice organic beef broth I can use. I had tried the peanut butter before, but it made her throw up.
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/31/12 03:32 PM

Lisa what I would do is get a sandwich bag and snug it up really tight against the hole with a rubber band and then freeze it upright in a small plastic cup.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/31/12 07:09 PM

That' perfect Leah, thank you!

We have an appt 9/10 with the doggie daycare trainer to see if Jazz would be a good fit. I can maybe aFford once a week for awhile, Thurdays would break up her week nicely. I hope this works. Worried about her size and what she might learn.

They have a webcam wink
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Separation Anxiety - 08/31/12 09:34 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
..... Worried about ....what she might learn.



From what we know, Jazz will LEAD any insurrection, she is so smart and so creative.

The sweet girl needs a safe place in Lisa's absence, maybe daycare will work.

Yes, she's sweet and small, but she has a big brain.

MJ
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/01/12 06:24 AM

Or maybe she will be the ringleader and teach the others!

Can she have a big bone sometimes? I read on the shyk9s list the other day that a lady removes a lot of the marrow from a marrow bone (!) and then fills it with goodies. Just an idea hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/01/12 01:44 PM

OMGosh, you guys are right, she will become a ring leader, I hadn't thought of that! You guys are very astute!

Bianca, I am always afraid of leaving bone type things when they are alone, but I might have to try something higher up on the attraction scale that will keep her buier longer.

Last night I left her in the car, attached to her Ruff Rider seat belt - she could move freely in the back seat. It fits kinda snug.

I came out, no dog in the back seat, she had squirmed her way out and was in *my* seat. Sigh, everything is coming undone!
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/01/12 05:08 PM

I have my vote in for the spunky little sesame ringleader! 3penguins She's going to teach all the other dogs how to squiggle out of car restraints! I bet most of the other dogs will be her same size, or smaller. Poodles, Bichons, cockers, Beagles, whippets, small mixes. cheers The blood is worrysome, but what about melatonin, valerian perhaps? thinking Or are those already in the Happy Traveller?
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/01/12 09:32 PM

Oh, Lisa. I am so sorry reading all this. How fearful Jazz must be.

I just got my WDJ jouranl today and read the article about Siam Sam and SA - I cried, too. Sam's owner was very fortunate to have such a network of friends to stay with Sam and even then it was so long term.

When you left her in the car, she got loose but did not destroy anything, right? Maybe she is one of those dogs who would be better with a room, rather than a crate. Would the bathroom be safe for her? Not so much to chew on in there or at least more easily puppy proofed.

And for music, could you mix your own quiet, comforting cd? It could just be on continous loop for her and you could control the tempo and volume. Maybe even experiment with adding your own voice on it.

Oh shoot - just tell them she must go to work with you every day. paw

Edited to add: Have you tried a communicator with her? My sister had great results recently with one via email. One of her aussies seemed to be losing drive for herding and she got some spot on suggestions that have helped.

Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/01/12 11:12 PM

Oh crap, just got caught up and saw the bloody crate. feelingblue

I was going to suggest daycare, glad you're looking into it. Hopefully that will at least wear her out! Is there a neighbor or someone who could come by and walk her a couple of times?

Is there anyone who lives near campus who could watch her while you're teaching?
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/02/12 03:00 AM

I think she has the potential to go wild at daycare - she is going to have a blast if this works out. I know there are a number of bigger dogs, so I am hoping her speed is enough to keep her safe. Trying not to worry about her Ab mucles!

I am not sure that someone walking her is a great idea - I don't think she is able to be "left" more than once in a single day - the act of someone leaving is a very bad trigger, and everything I've read says the first 30 minutes after being alone are the worst frown

I've been thinking hard about people I can enlist, but the folks that might be helpful, are all pretty far away.

Bonnie, I did try a communicator. I don't think there was really anything there to help, and that disappoints me. Maybe a suggestion for a game to help build independence, but no magic bullet.

I do think she will do MUCH better without a crate, but it will take a bit to get her to that point. I am able to walk out, close the door, and come back, which I wasn't able to do before, so I guess that's a good sign!
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/02/12 03:18 AM

You're right about the leaving twice. I remember that for Rafi the first 10 minutes was the worst. Once I got him past that he did fine for hours. Even now I hate running back in the house when I forget something.

Getting Rafi out of the crate was key. When I left him in the crate he would destroy anything he could get his mouth on but when I left him loose he didn't touch anything in the house. So barrier anxiety was a big one for him.

I'm confused because you say that Jazz is fine when you leave her for 5 minutes b/c she knows you're not really leaving. Aren't you doing the exercises where you go through the whole leaving routine?
Posted by: middleofnowhere

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/02/12 10:49 AM

This thought may be delirium induced but... how about making a video loop of "you" - talking, singing, talking on the phone, moving about. Do you think that might be "interesting" for her?
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/02/12 12:38 PM

Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow

I'm confused because you say that Jazz is fine when you leave her for 5 minutes b/c she knows you're not really leaving. Aren't you doing the exercises where you go through the whole leaving routine?


We are up to the "count" of five, not yet a minute, but we are slowly getting there. One time I even counted to 15!

I am going out the front door when I do this, rather than the laundry door to the garage which is our usual exit. For the area I am blocking off, I might have to use that door, and go around after I have opened the garage. So with that door, I really am starting more neutral I think - I think she does not yet associate it with me leaving. I will use the usual door while she is still in the crate.

I have to be careful where I set the xpens to block the areas when I leave so he has access to the door, otherwise she will scale the xpen, I'm sure of it.

I am also starting more "door therapy" in the house. I live alone, I don't close door. I am trying to remember to close a door with her on the other side more frequently.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/02/12 12:41 PM

Originally Posted By: middleofnowhere
This thought may be delirium induced but... how about making a video loop of "you" - talking, singing, talking on the phone, moving about. Do you think that might be "interesting" for her?

Ugh, I so don't want to do that, but maybe worth a thought! Some things I've read do recommend taping yourself reading a book.
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/06/12 11:21 AM

How's this week going for Jazz?

MJ
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/07/12 07:59 AM

Just checking in to see how Jazzy is doing? I'm hoping that her week went well. peacesign
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/08/12 03:15 AM

Thanks for checking up on us!! smile

We thankfully had a short week. Monday was a holiday, Tuesday I didn't go in, and Wednesday she came to work with me since we had an appointment after work. So, we only had to get through Thursday and Friday.

She did better, she didn't need a bath from the drool when I got home, and I don't think I saw any new blood. So this is good. It's still really hard, but at least there's a bit of hope.

When we get up and we go out first thing in the morning I give her a Happy Traveler capsule. After getting ready, breakfast, and a morning walk, she gets her second Happy Traveler capsule (which doubles her recommended dose) and a St. John's Wort capsule, and I put a couple of kongs in her crate, with an antler, and the most important addition was the kibble in frozen broth kong. She goes nuts for it. I had read that some of the tricyclic antidepressants can start to help control this fairly quickly, which is why I added the SJW. However, some of the other drugs they use can take months, and I have no idea how quickly the SJW will help, if at all.

Leaving is really hard, it weighs on me greatly, but it was nice having an easier week this week. Monday we have our appt with the day care trainer to see if we "pass", so she gets to come in with me then too, yay!

I am having a hard time conditioning her to be alone out of the crate, since once I'm home, it's twice as hard for her to be away from me. Evening practicing "waits" are almost impossible on days I've been to work and left her alone.

And it's so surprising really, she's not a clingy dog, she is otherwise confident and becoming more independent all the time.

After comments here about how she might do at daycare, I have let her play with a few bigger dogs that we've met, and one of the neighbor dogs, and she has done great. And you guys are right, she will be the ring leader wub
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/08/12 04:21 AM

Sweet Jazzy having playdates wub I hope all goes well on Monday. And yah for Kongs!
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/08/12 08:54 AM

Thanks for the update. I can only guess how tough it must be to leave her, knowing how she feels. You are both searching for a solution, I really think she is trying to understand what's happening, but it seems to be hugely stressful and that makes it hard to think. Jazz can learn so much, so fast that each day is some kind of progress, even if it's not the direction you'd like.

If she is admitted (does she need letters of recommendation?), will you start day care right away?

MJ
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/08/12 10:35 AM

Incremental progress is still progress! smile Think good thoughts about how far you have come. No blood, no drool-bath? Improvement! That means all you are doing is working. Small steps, but forward progress! I hope she loooves her daycare "teacher" and her entrance exam is passed with flying ears.. I mean, flying colors! wink I'll continue to send calming vibes for Jazzy!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/08/12 11:36 AM

Yes, incremental steps are still forward steps and that is good! The frozen broth, what a lifesaver. Not sure what I'll be able to use if I get to the point I leave her out of the crate, I'm sure that will ucky the carpet. One step at a time though!

Lol, that would be cute to bring a letter of recommendation smile

Next week, because of the appt she is coming in on monday, and friday too if I go to the dept picnic. So that leaves wed and thurs. I may try and start her then when her momory of the place is still fairly fresh, then after that each thursday.

Of course I worry she will worry she is being left, since she was already abandoned once. But one step at a time, and I think she will have a blast once she understands.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/08/12 11:45 AM

Poor thing, we're getting ready for training and she's shivering, thinking it's a work day frown
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/09/12 05:34 AM

frown That is so sad, she is just a pup and shouldn't be so stressed hugging

I hope training went well.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/09/12 03:04 PM

Training went well, except my timing is off (not used to a puppy, not used to a small dog!). But she is still young, lots of time with her, and I'm happy not to push her too much while she is developing. Self control is coming slower!

The separation during the week seems to make it harder for her to train - less willing to do things that require me to walk away from her, unless she is in control.

I'm wondering if I should start her a half day at daycare, if they accept us. Don't know if I can get away with taking her in another day though.....
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/09/12 03:26 PM

It sounds like she is doing really well, Lisa. She sure is a trooper! Glad you found something she likes (the broth kong) and glad she had some play dates! When you're talking SA, any progress is progress!
Posted by: middleofnowhere

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/09/12 04:05 PM

I had forgotten about this but WDJ did an article on "Kong Time" as a SA aid. It's the gizmo that releases X number of Kongs over the period you are gone. I guess it gives the dogs something to watch for. Might work with broth Kongs?
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/09/12 04:31 PM

They discontinued the manufacture of the Kong Time thing.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/09/12 06:24 PM

Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow
...When you're talking SA, any progress is progress!

I need to keep remembering this!!

The kong timer thing, with my luck, she would chew the plastic part that dispensed the kongs. Those ball treat dispenser things that are plastic - when she can't get the last piece out, she starts chewing some of the plastic trimmings - patience is not yet her virtue!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/11/12 12:27 PM

Well, we passed, and Jazz has been approved for daycare. She was pretty nervous, she will be in a room with the small dogs (and you know how small dogs can be wink ) and the mellower big dogs that don't do so well in the big dog room.

She is there now, for about 3 hours while I run some errands, to let her adjust a bit and ee how we think she will do for a full day. I may be more nervous than her.

When we got there today, I asked her if she wanted to go out and play, and she lunged in her seat belt and started barking, which made me feel better. But then they put her in the room with the already establihed pack, and they all rush her, her hackles go up, tail is tucked, and she's scared. I left so they could do their doggy thing and work it out. I'm sure she will be fine!

I'm just really bummed that I can't get the webcam to work on my phone.

Question. She is now adjusting to two things, the daycare, and being alone. Eventually, the daycare should be good for her, though they did say yesterday that it might take a week for them to adjust, those that go everyday.

Long term I hope to have her there once a week, and home alone MWF. Trying to manage these two things, do you think it would be harder to get her used to being alone at home if it were only MF instead of a more regular MWF, or easier to adjust to it. I would have to do daycare WTh then, but I don't know which would be least stressful for her. Maybe just being away from me at daycare will help her be alone at home?
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/11/12 01:15 PM

I obviously can't respond to any of your good questions, but I can crossedfingers that Jazmine's owner can take a deep breath and little Jazz gets through her first day with all the other kids with minimal difficulty.

Do please post when you both get home.

thanks,
MJ
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/11/12 01:21 PM

As long as she adjusts ok to daycare I would go with leaving her there more often because then she will be really tired on her home days! I know this is hard--I have the same crazy schedule so Rafi has had to adjust to me being home most of the time for months and then he'll have a couple of weeks where I'm gone 10 to 12 hours a day or out of town for a week. Once he got over the big hump at the beginning he did ok though and I know Jazz will too.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/11/12 08:17 PM

Okay, we will see what a temporary Wed/Thur schedule brings, and how she does.

I went to pick her up and of course she went nuts when she saw me, poor thing pee'd all over the place - I guess she was holding it the whole time there frown I asked if she had any fun, and the staff person kinda wrinkled her nose and hesitantly said no, but she did say she was pretty typical for a first timer. She stayed closed to the door, and whined a bit.

She was stressed when I got her back to the car, and tired. But overall, doesn't seem like she was traumatized, seems happy and playful tonight. I guess what will be very telling is how she reacts when we pull up in the driveway there the next couple days. I sure hope that this works, would be nice to have a place where she can go if I have to leave for the whole day.

When I'm home, I can't seem to get the webcam to work, keeps saying that the server is down, very frustrated with that - hope it works at work. Out of old Firefox, Chrome, IE, and Opera, I can only get to the login screen with FF. Will have to ask tomorrow.
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/11/12 08:26 PM

Not that it's my business, but I want to wait to say anything based upon the repeat visits. There are so many things happening, Jazz will tell Lisa after a few repetitions and she'll tell us.

I'm glad she was happy tonight and I hope Lisa was, also.

MJ
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/11/12 08:34 PM

You guys are like her extended Aunts laugh

I am feeling a little hopeful tonight, maybe a bit of light at the end of that tunnel crossedfingers
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/12/12 04:33 AM

Oh I so hope your sweet girl starts to really enjoy herself. You both need this hugging
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/12/12 07:03 AM

I hope it is like those first few days of school for kids - just need to make a couple of friends and all will be good.

But I have never left a dog at day care, so I have no experience on that. If Jazz can learn to relax there hopefully that will carry over to be less worried when you leave and she is home.

Good luck! thumbup
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/12/12 07:03 AM

Hope the next time goes better! That kind of sounds like how Niko did at day care. frown
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/12/12 07:16 AM

Lisa, I have two friends with very clingy, anxious dogs, who put them in daycare. It really DID take a solid week before each dog bonded to his/her new "homies!" Now both dogs love going, and it's helped them balance out some of their anxious behaviors at home. I'm not sure if it's the energetic outlet, or being entertained by other dogs which helps, or if it's just getting a chance to be a dog in a dynamic group, but both dogs are more confident overall. Just took a good week or so before they became a really happy part of the pack.

Paws are crossed that Jazz warms up quickly to her new buddies, and that she soon tells you how happy she is there!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/13/12 03:26 AM

I think it's going to be okay.

I did give her an herbal this morning (Happy Traveler), she was shaking and anxious while I was getting ready for the day, and of course nervous driving in, not sure where we were going.

When we got there, she didn't show any averse signs, and trotted right up to the door. Of course, when they take her and put her in the room, she gets hervous, and they said that for about the first hour she would whine and pace around the door. I don't think she played much, but did have some interactions with other dogs.

The webcam is pretty bad - there are 8 cameras, and it seems like the one on the small dog room is one of the worst, or maybe they just move too fast wink But when I could see her, she didn't look like she was in a bad state. I did call and ask them to show her where to potty, since she held it yesterday, and when I picked her up, no pee at all smile There are about 3 little brown dogs that look a lot alike on the webcam, frustrating it's so blurry and choppy.

This will probably sound funny, but I think she has been kind of depressed (suppressed???). Since yesterday, when she's not sleeping, she just wants to play and run around in a way that she wasn't before. I think me so severely restricting her activities after her surgeries this summer, she was afraid to be "her". So, she seems happier, and Patti, I do think this will help her confidence a lot, yes, thank you.

Last night when we walked, after a short stint at the daycare, she was hackling up at all the dogs we saw, and this morning while in the car she was even barking at someone walking by, so I have a whole new set of behaviours that I will be dealing with. But I think those were all suppressed, and it's good to see them, as long as they don't get worse.

So, hopefully tomorrow will go the same and I won't have to take back anything I just wrote! LOL, now I just have to worry about her not hurting herself, or re-herniating!

As a side note, I have many of the same students I had last year. They want to know, since Max was able to come in with me every day in those last couple of months, they want Jazz to come in every day too. I told them only special occassions....
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/13/12 05:11 AM

Awww how lovely of your students wub

It sounds like all in all she is doing pretty good Lisa! I can't imagine why dogs cant feel some sort of depression.
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/13/12 08:19 AM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
I think it's going to be okay.



Gosh that's good news. Jazz has so much potential-it can be sooooooooo good, once a set of SOP is working. Sometimes you go together, sometimes you go alone, sometimes she sees her friends, sometimes you both see your friends.

OK, I'm babbling, I just was glad to read this.

thanks,
Mary Jane
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/13/12 09:09 AM

See? Jazzy's even got a fanclub at school! Everyone wants her! 3penguins She's going to settle in just fine, I bet. Any behaviors you see now with hackling on walks may be because daycare hasn't "set in" yet, in that dogs approaching are not yet "Ho-Hum..." to her. Hopefully, with more daycare, they will be! It soyunds like a sensible daycare, not one where they allow mismatches in size, energy level, etc. So I'm thinking that the daycare will in time advance her ability to just roll with stuff in general, especially encountering new dogs as "just old hat."

Going to school as often as you can take her, will add to her experiences, too, and help her become calmer and more confident.

The Happy Traveller, the walks, the daycare, the days at school, all of the measures you are putting into place for her will build her into a more comfortable-with-the-world-and-new-experiences kinda dog. bloomrose goodjob

Please try to feel good about all that you are doing, and that incremental improvements really do (and will continue to) add up! thumbup Your optimism and happy outlook will be contagious to her, and further add to her increasing ability to stay by herself comfortably. Those small improvements are cumulative! cheers peacesign
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/13/12 11:15 AM

I agree with Patti that she just needs time to get used to the new daycare routine.

I'm glad to hear that she's happy and playful in the evenings. That's a really good sign!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/13/12 01:11 PM

I did give her a HT thi morning, but I think it's the last time I will give her one before daycare. Except for the handoff, when they take her away from me, she show nothing but poitive signs.

I see her changing the way she is moving, I think this might be good rehab, her forgetting to "be careful".

Thanks for the "been there" support Ruth, it helps a lot!

MJ, yes, she has a ton of potential, so nice to see her world get larger and see it work for her. I'm afraid that she needs a lot of social stimulation and I'm going to have to find outlets for that. Crap, she probably needs a buddy down the road...

Patti, yes, it's very interesting to watch them grow and develop emotionally too. Such a fluid process, when it doen't get stuck!
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/13/12 08:41 PM

Good news for Jazzy! I hope you continue to have more and more fun each day!

hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/13/12 10:43 PM

Thank you bonnie smile

She was a little whiny towards the end of the day today, I'm wondering if she was just exhausted. She sure has a problem resting thought, wakes up at the drop of a pin, which has been the case since she got here.

Okay, week one done...tomorrow she gets to come to work with me, and then next week we start our regular routine.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/15/12 04:48 AM

I bet your students loved having her in class! Um....would it be time for some pics maybe...please! smile
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/16/12 05:25 PM

Hardly any time for pics these last couple of weeks, hope I get caught up soon!

She has had several dog encounters lately, all of a sudden, but I'm not sure I like the way she is playing, and I'm not sure if day care has anything to do with her behaviour, since she wasn't allowed to play much before because of her surgeries. She has played with a neighbor dog, and it has appeared nothing but sweet, though it seemed she was clearly sending signals to control the play.

So, Friday was interesting. I took her to work, and she played with two smaller dogs that she has played with once before. The first was a very small chihuahua. Jazz was a bit over the top, the chihuahua did a fair bit of growling at her, but they did play, and all seemed okay.

That afternoon at the picnic, she played with a smaller dachshund/wired haired Jack Russell type mix. She was really over tired, and maybe that had something to do with it, but I did not like how she played at all. She did a lot of nipping at the legs (there was blood on his inner thing and his hocks frown ), and she was just overbearing. She did a lot of sitting on top of him too.

At training yesterday, she wants to play with this mini-schnauzer, a little bigger than her, and she kept trying to put her head under him to roll him. The trainer didn't really like that, and when she got too amped, we stopped them.

That afternoon, she was playing with a friend's dog, a havanese, about the same size as her, and she was doing the sitting thing again, later in the play she was trying to reach under and nip the legs too, which I redirected.

I think my dog is a bit of a bully shocked These behaviours could also be from anxiety, getting the other dog before they get her.

She is very confident, while at the same time anxious, which is a weird combination to deal with. She often will turn to other dogs and shake her hind end at them, and use it to smack them or sit on them. I was asking one of the trainers about this, and her comment is that it takes an awfully confident dog to do that, to expose an area which has no teeth.

So, I've been thinking about that nature/nuture thread we had a bit a go. Wondering about the daycare thing. Maybe it's bringing this out by nature of making her more confident and this is really who she is. Or is she learning things there, and this really isn't who she is, or maybe somewhere in between.

Weird. I guess we'll see how next week goes.

I have a few pics that I'll post in a minute, but we haven't been doing anything fun though!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/16/12 05:31 PM

(cell phone pics...)

Tried to get a pic of her collar, harness and leash combo, but she kept turning her head!


A tired girl:




Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/16/12 09:09 PM

I know I keep on repeating myself but she is so darn cute. So weird about her playing style. Isn't the nipping usually a "herding" sort of thing? Maybe she doesn't realize she is being too forceful? Could it be that she is just anxious because she really has not had a lot of playing the first few months in her new environment because of the health issues? I think that maybe all this will balance out since you are re-directing her. She will more than likely catch on eventually and understand where the balance it.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/16/12 09:28 PM

LOL, I tell myself a gazillion times a day how cute she is rofl

That's what I thought about the herding/nipping thing, but I guess another interpretation is a prey thing, and that makes sense to me.

I hope you are right that it's just being over-anxious, and will balance with time. I hope so, and I'm inclined to think so. She really is such a good girl at heart, I hate to thing of her as a bully. As a ring leader, maybe, bully no laugh
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/16/12 10:04 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
at heart, I hate to thing of her as a bully. As a ring leader, maybe, bully no laugh


Jazzy? Bully? Naahhhh, not this cute precious thing. I am just going to believe this will work itself out with your caring guidance.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/16/12 10:08 PM

Originally Posted By: LMS
Jazzy? Bully? Naahhhh, not this cute precious thing.

I hope you are right! wub
Posted by: JeanKBBMMMAAN

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/16/12 10:12 PM

Oh my gosh she is adorable!

She may not know how to play with dogs? For a few months, Lily's default was to jump on a dog's head as a greeting. I mean...that was so freaking obnoxious I almost couldn't stand it. I can't even remember how we worked that out! Having had dogs who are less than interested in meeting other dogs, which I am very pleased with, my opinion of her behavior was not a positive one. Oh, I do remember. Clicker, on leash, attention on me, click, treat, say hello - I need to rework that a bit - some dogs still illicit that response from her, but I think (if Jamie sees this) she's much better. But she had not been around dogs for her whole young life, mine were the first. When I took Ava to dog test her, she did that and Ava just gritted her teeth, and I was like wow, obnoxious!

Anyhoooo, I think when they don't know how to play, they are like close talkers and they over-try. Over play, over posture, over run, everything. If you can find some positive adult dog influences, who are capable of a correction that is fair if necessary - or are just the type dogs do not mess with - she may learn it more quickly than being taught. Plus she may also have some drives and tendencies genetically that will amp up whatever the behavior is.

Does she play with other dogs in daycare? Because I would stop that if so (LOL of course I would!) because she's getting lots of opportunities to practice these behaviors without a really good supervisory process (IMO overall).

Also, wanted to happily report that I had my first quiet shower since probably February, tonight! Nico barks when crated and I am out down the hall - which, if I am taking a shower, he is going to be crated, sorry little guy! So I gave him his "pacifier" dumbbell thing with kibble and ran to the shower. He didn't even realize I was gone (he's really into it) until he heard me leave the bathroom. Nice! So I am giving that Premier dumbbell 2 ears up!
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/17/12 06:40 AM

She really is sooooooo adorable wub

Do you think it could just be pure overexcitment and not knowing what to do with it? I am so not an expert (obviously lol!) but just a thought.

Molly is a bit of a bully frown
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/17/12 11:31 AM

Can you ask the daycare people tomorrow to pay attention to Jazz' play style? It's clear that you shape her behavior with dogs when you're present and maybe all the exposures can work together.

It's nice to see your girl in her colorful shackles.
MJ
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/17/12 12:51 PM

Shackles rofl frown can't wait for her to be trained well enough to be off leash!

I think it does make more sense that this is amped up stuff, and lack of socialization. Before she went to daycare, she did play different though, o it is at play here, in some way.

The shower, I hear you Jean, congratulations laugh I am working on her letting me close the door, it's such a process!

Today, monday, and also fridays, are crate days. O do think good thoughts for her! I hope to talk with them at daycare, but o far, she isn't playing there much, and is till fairly anxious.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/18/12 03:26 PM

One thing I learned at the picnic lat week - if a 16 pound dog lunges while you aren't paying attention, do not correct her with the force you would for an 80 lb GSD frown

Yesterday, I gave her the broth soaked kibble in a kong. I packed it too tight, so she couldn't work the kibble out, o it didn't work so well.

Tried leaving her in the car today while I ran into the store. She barked a lot when I left, was quiet when I got out, which was good. However, she had jumped into the back cargo area when he had to pee from the anxiety. At least she pee'd in the best possible spot for cleanup.

I guess this is just going to be the new normal for awhile, as it *hopefully* slowly gets better...
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/18/12 03:29 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
as it *hopefully* slowly gets better...


It will. Hang in there Lisa hugging
Posted by: LJsMom

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/18/12 05:00 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
However, she had jumped into the back cargo area when he had to pee from the anxiety. At least she pee'd in the best possible spot for cleanup.


I suppose it's good that Jazz isn't an anxious pooper! laugh
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/18/12 06:24 PM

Thank you Elvi hugging

Joanne, she was at first, but we seem to be past that part, as well as mostly past the "throw up" part, thank goodness!

She has fear, and that's just hard frown
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/18/12 06:44 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa

She has fear, and that's just hard frown


I have to read about Jazmine, I have to know how she is, but I wish to heaven it was easier on both of you. Her sweet life will be hugely different some months from now-it's the getting from here to there.

Maybe she would like a kitten?

MJ
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/18/12 07:29 PM

I know what you mean MJ.

LOL, she would probably love a kitten. Too bad I am incredibly allergic to cats (but not kittens)! I think, at some point, she will need a companion, but that's down the road quite a ways.
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/18/12 09:03 PM

It seems like such a long, hard journey. But if you go back and read earlier posts, I bet you would be surprised how far you two have come together.

And all that with healthy problems, too!

Jazzy is so sweet and you are so right for her.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/18/12 09:35 PM

Thank you Bonnie, she has grown up quite a bit, and we really have come a long way.

I just made an appt with my very accomodating, Tuesday only vet that puts up with me. It seems worthwhile to get a thyroid baseline. I do not think it would be low enough to require supplementation, but sure want to see what it's doing, and if there are any antibodies. The appt is in 1 month, she books up pretty fast. I hope she will go along with it.

I just realized, that will be real close to her 1st birthday, so not bad timing.

Anyone know when puberty hits in a small breed dog?
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/19/12 05:50 AM

hugging The other ladies in The Jazz Fan club have said it so much more eloquently than I can, but you ARE both making progress Lisa hugging

Oh I have just realised her birthday is the day before Coops smile
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/19/12 07:07 AM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa


Anyone know when puberty hits in a small breed dog?


I don't know the answer but I can tell you that my MIL's cocker spaniel is 6 months old and has not had her first heat. And won't since she just got spayed yesterday lol.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/19/12 12:48 PM

Jazz and Coop are the same sign wub

That spayed thing, hard to tell now about the puberty thing! They though Jazz around 6 months and she was inspayed and assume hadn't had a heat.

Emailed Jean Dodds quickly, and she said that behavior problems that start after puberty are often a sign of thyroid dysfunction, or vaccine reaction if there was a vax 30-45 days previous. That situation doesn't apply here, but I do worry about anything born within a certain timeframe of Fukushima, so good to have a baseline.

Told herit's a doggie daycare day, she is concerned, but not shaking, I did not herbicate her this morning wink

This morning, peeking out from her covers, not wanting to get up:

Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/19/12 03:09 PM

Oh, my goodness. That look...LOL. Like :"Seriously? I need to get up?"
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/20/12 04:12 AM

You meanie you! How could you make her get out of bed!!!! laugh
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/25/12 06:50 AM

How is Miss Jazzy going?
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/25/12 06:59 AM

Yes, updates please! And pictures, of course! Hope you are seeing improvement and Jazz is becoming more relaxed.
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/25/12 08:06 AM

You know Lisa, we are all noticing how very improved Jazz is. Reading this thread back a ways, I can see that Jazz's many improvements do come in tiny increments. But you are making progress, moving in the right direction. hugging By next summer, I can imagine a much more settled Jazz. peacesign

The photo with her huuuuge intelligent eyes gazing up at us as her adorably aeronautic ears ka-flop cutely... EEEEEE! wub I love it! laugh
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/25/12 12:40 PM

Flippy-floppy ears wub Jazzy in her little cocoon, uber-snuggly!!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/28/12 01:28 PM

It's REALLY hard to get up when she is all snuggly and it's a bit cold smile I hope to have some more pic, just swamped since work started, and still not feeling well, since last May or so frown

Yes, there is small progress! I am looking forward to when I can look back at all this.

They told me she played a little at daycare yeterday, which is pretty huge and made me happy. Of coure, this may be an ongoing expene now shocked , but I really think it is good for her.

Just this week, I have been able to make progress with a closed door between her and I when I take a shower. Today was the first day she stayed in her snuggle bed the whole time and didn't come to the door. That really is huge - she alway used to have to at least peek her head around the shower curtain and whine once or twice while I was in the shower. At first when I would close the door with her in the room, she would panic, even with me in the room (not pretty). Weird.

Monday in the crate went as well as could be expected, and she might have been a little better, will know better when I get home tonight.

Not a great pic, this morning...


Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/28/12 02:02 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
........ Yes, there is small progress! .....
They told me she played a little at daycare yeterday, which is pretty huge and made me happy. ....... I have been able to make progress with a closed door between her and I ....


That kind of progress is progressive-I mean that Jazz must feel better because she behaves better and you surely feel better when she behaves and feels better and everybody wins!!!!!!

Does everybody make AAAAWWW noises at the Jazz' pictures like I do?

thanks for the update,
MJ
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/28/12 02:16 PM

Guilty as charged! I too, make AAAAWWW noises when seeing Jazzy pics! wub Can't help it! blush

Lisa, even though the steps seem tiny now, there are in fact a LOT of them. You've been journaling about her SA since she arrived, and boy, is there ever progress being made! She will continue to only improve. peacesign
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/28/12 02:27 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
It's REALLY hard to get up when she is all snuggly and it's a bit cold smile I hope to have some more pic, just swamped since work started, and still not feeling well, since last May or so frown


Awe, goodness...such cuteness. You have made a very nice setup for her. It is obvious she loves it wub

You are not feeling good since May? What's wrong? Please take care of yourself, Lisa. You are always helping everybody else. Don't forget yourself, ok?

Quote:
take a shower. Today was the first day she stayed in her snuggle bed the whole time and didn't come to the door. That really is huge - she alway


YAY Jazzy girl thumbup thumbup groovy . Good girl, Jazzy. See? Your hard work and persistence is paying off. I am so, so glad she found you. Hang in there.
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/28/12 04:57 PM

I am reading Progress with a capital P!

Take care, Lisa - Jazz is very important but you are as well!
Posted by: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/28/12 06:48 PM

Lisa Jazzy is so cute. I am glad she is having some progress. Maybe going to daycare and having a little fun, but seeing that you are there to pick her up all the time might just be the trick to make her a little ore secure that you aren't going to disappear out of her life.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/28/12 10:35 PM

Jazz did well today. She still has a lot of anxiety, and I still use a double dose of Happy Traveler and melatonin on crate days, but this week, almost no drool in the crate, no vomit, no nothin'. After I get home and let her out, she recovers more quickly, and while she is vocalizing and jumping around, she is also going to grab her kong from the crate, which is great that she's not just jumping on me. Yay.

Thank you guys, and, yes Val, I'm hoping once she learns that she always gets to come home (from daycare), and I always come home to her, that things will get easier.

Elvi, I've just been *really* run down. I was sick at the end of summer, fever, lymph nodes, etc., lasted for 6 weeks, and almost all symptoms went away after about 3 days on doxycyline, so I kinda worry about that. A lot easier for me to give a dog extended probiotics than myself - I only went for 2 weeks. But I haven't been the same since. Anyway, hoping I will figure something out for that too!


I'm thinking about next week dropping the crate days to 1 Happy Traveler and the melatonin. She sleeps all night because she's doped up, but wakes up at just the wrong time!
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/28/12 11:43 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa


Elvi, I've just been *really* run down. I was sick at the end of summer, fever, lymph nodes, etc., lasted for 6 weeks, and almost all symptoms went away after about 3 days on doxycyline, so I kinda worry about that. A lot easier for me to give a dog extended probiotics than myself - I only went for 2 weeks. But I haven't been the same since. Anyway, hoping I will figure something out for that too!


I am not surprised at your being run down. You have had to go, go, go for several months now without stopping.

I am so thrilled to read about the progress Jazzy is making not just for her but also for you because hopefully this will give you more time to take care of yourself.

I don't know if you have a set probiotic you are taking but I am taking This one . It is very good and pure. Also, I often use emergen-C when I feel run down or feel my body is fighting something. As well versed as you are with supplements, you probably are already taking top of the line stuff as far as quality is concerned but I thought I would mention it in case you want to try them.

May your season of breakthroughs and refreshing start now and may next year be a year of getting back what you have lost in terms of health, energy/vitality and also finances. Huge Hugs



Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/29/12 12:05 AM

Elvi, that's so funny, I have that probiotic here, trying it for Jazz. Guess I should try it too! Actually, I was using the Primal Defense Ultra since I was exposed to a lot of C. Difficile when Dad was in the hospital this summer. But I will try the Raw one, I like the idea of it.

I have the Emergen-C here too smile

Thank you so much for checking in. Hoping it will just take some time for me to get back on my feet. And it will be even better as Jazz gets better!

To the coming year cheers
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/29/12 12:19 AM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
Elvi, that's so funny, I have that probiotic here, trying it for Jazz. Guess I should try it too!
I have the Emergen-C here too smile


Ha!!! Yes, that is funny!!!

Give that baby girl, Jazzy a little kiss from me, please.
Posted by: JeanKBBMMMAAN

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/29/12 12:35 AM

Another awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwreader here!

She is simply adorable.

I am glad that there is such huge improvement (I think it's huge - I am easily impressed but think huge is accurate). Tincture of time, my vet always says.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/29/12 06:08 AM

Mary Jane yep another one here who squeals when I see her beautiful little face!

Lisa, you are both making tremendous progress and it is probably easier for us to see from afar.

Please take care of you too hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/29/12 11:16 AM

wub she is really growing into one very cool little dog, and while she lost some of that puppy cuteness, she is still pretty adorable if I do say so myself, so glad that you guys agree! Thank you ladies, for supporting us both!
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/29/12 02:18 PM

I do say "aawwwwww!!" when I see Jazzy pics too! The phrase "as snug as a bug in a rug" comes to mind. smile Glad to hear her continued progress. You have great patience in dealing with this.
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/30/12 12:27 PM

Thinking of Jazzy girl and hoping you two are having a good day.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/30/12 07:39 PM

We had a good training day on Saturday. I was really frustrated after the previous Saturday, she and I just weren't working well together. We figured it out though. As the trainer said, I'm used to having a level 6 dog (our classes were always broken into 4 levels and Indy ultimately was the demo dog), and Jazz is probably at about 2.5. Because of her puppy nature, placement is hard so she is in a more advanced class now, and she is so good in certain areas, and also so much like Indy, I just am expecting too much from her.

When something is wrong with the dog training, usually the handler, right?

Having the summer that just won't end here. I have to take Dad to the doctor on Tuesday - I had hoped to crate her in the car during that time, but it's supposed to hit 100 degrees (so sad, summer smileys are gone, summer is supposed to be gone!!).

Anyway, either it's an extra day of daycare, or an extra day staying home alone. I don't like to make it two days in a row right now, her anxiety is always escalated on day two. Mom doesn't see too well, I don't feel good about leaving her home alone there (one time her cane was dropped on Jazz's back frown ). So, I have a day to ponder that.

Yesterday she did scratch at the shower door, didn't help that I dropped something in the shower, so I'm sure she was worried about me eyeroll . Once she is consistently okay with me behind a closed door, I will working on leaving her alone outside of the crate when I am gone I think.
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 09/30/12 08:12 PM

I believe the key is in repetition, repetition, repetition. As you maintain the same standard, same end result (you are coming back, you are safe), she will eventually have that click in her brain...that "aha" and it will become much easier from that point on.

Getting to that point..I know...frustrating but you are doing an awesome job. Don't be too hard on yourself. You are both learning about each other (you, Lisa are learning the difference between breed characteristics and Jazzy is learning that you and the environment you are creating for her is nothing like the one she had prior to coming to you).

In the end you are going to look back at this, so much wiser, so much stronger. In other words, nothing is lost, everything presents an opportunity of growth and learning. Give yourself a break dear lady.

Hopefully, that moment of "aha" will be very soon.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/01/12 06:48 AM

Elvi that was beautifully written!

Nothing to add Lisa just more hugging and a gentle cuddle for your girl.
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/02/12 11:31 AM

I hope that things go well for your father's doctor's visit and that Jazz exceeds your expectations for her good behavior today.

MJ
Posted by: shepnterrier

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/02/12 12:15 PM

AAAAAWWWWW! Jazzy, you can always come here and I'll send Elly to Lisa for a trade. Elly's stopped screeching when Sarah leaves the room. It was really loud when she did it. She's also stopped ripping up her beds when Sarah is in the bathroom. But she still plays too rough for me. We could play chase games, go on rodent patrol, bark at strangers who want to pet us, and snuggle when Sarah is gone. How's that? --Chippy

PS I thought Elly would never learn. She did, it just took REAL long. You will, too. Small dogs rock!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/02/12 12:27 PM

Elvi, yes, pefectly written, thank you! That helps, and thank you bianca.

MJ,thank you for remembering! I had made an extra daycare day, but Dad's doc called and cancelled, so problem solved, at leased until we reschedule. I really don't want to leave her alone two days in a row just yet.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/02/12 12:32 PM

Originally Posted By: shepnterrier
AAAAAWWWWW! Jazzy, you can always come here and I'll send Elly to Lisa for a trade. Elly's stopped screeching when Sarah leaves the room. It was really loud when she did it. She's also stopped ripping up her beds when Sarah is in the bathroom. But she still plays too rough for me. We could play chase games, go on rodent patrol, bark at strangers who want to pet us, and snuggle when Sarah is gone. How's that? --Chippy

PS I thought Elly would never learn. She did, it just took REAL long. You will, too. Small dogs rock!



Oh Chip! We would have so much fun, I play real well, and I am just learning how to hunt. Everytime I see a squirrel, Mom has distracted me, but at training I got to watch a dog lunge and chase, and after that, that's what I kept trying to do too! I am learning real good!

And last night when I smelled critters in the yard, they woke me up, and I barked in the middle of the night for a long time! Mom says I'm her little tough girl!

I am a little like Elly, but trying to get better. Glad to know it get less scary - tough girls don't like to be scared!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/19/12 07:33 PM

Well, *%#!%#... mad I am such an idiot.

I thought I would try the wire crate today. I forgot to latch one of the doors.

So, with gobs of treats, Happy Traveler, and melatonin, I still caame home to this:




I guess it could be worse. There is a pee stain on one of the throw rugs, a stain on the
rug elsewwhere from the frozen broth in the kong, but the only permanent damage is the
door molding here.

I haven't checked her mouth yet. I had second thoughts about the wire crate, thinking she might hurt herself on it, but I had forgotten to scrub the other one from the damage she did on monday.

I might have to drug her.
Posted by: LJsMom

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/19/12 07:49 PM

Holy crap! Good thing she's small. The damage is relatively contained.

You're not an idiot. You made a mistake. No one died. Hopefully no injuries to Jazz's mouth.

Medicating is not a horrible thing. Keep in mind that I medicated both my kids for ADHD. paranoid

Daycare more often?
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/19/12 07:51 PM

Wow, Lisa, that is awful. Do you think she figured out how to unlatch the wire crate latch? It's weird because even when outside of the cage, she still freaks out. I am so sorry for the both of you. I know this is frustrating.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/19/12 08:17 PM

Yes, the damage could have been more widespread. I am so glad that I think she didn't swallow too much.

Daycare while I'm at work would be roughly $350 a month. I guess if I commit to starting a serious desensitization program, maybe it's cheaper than the vet appts and drugs. I can't do the program welll now because we take so many steps back each day she has to stay here in her crate.

I am pretty sure I didn't latch one of the doors. I sure hope he hasn't figured out the latch frown

So ad tonight, had a terrible day at work too, dealing with stupid arrogant people.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/19/12 08:19 PM

Oh, mouth mut be okay, chewing on an antler now, after she finished all the kong stuff he had left. When she is alone, she tends not to be as interested in that stuff.
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/19/12 11:31 PM

I was hoping she was doing better but she erally was trying to get out to find you.

Poor baby and poor Lisa. I am so sorry.

I forget - did you already try the thunder shirt?
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/20/12 12:16 AM

Thank you Bonnie.

You know, she was meant to be here, but once we made that connection, she isn't about to let me out of her sight. I wish I could unlock that terror she has...

Tried the thunderhirt. Doesn't seem to help much for this.

I can try higher dose dedicated St. John's Wort I guess. It's part of the HT, but there is other stuff in there that makes her sleepy, or at least used to.

Very hard.
Posted by: msvette2u

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/20/12 02:04 AM

We had a foster Great Dane that left our shelter door jambs like that frown
So sad - I hope you can get things under control.
A crate can be a saving grace with an SA dog, or a disaster, if they can break out of it (or injure themselves trying).

I can tell you that put in a proper kennel (which, for him, was a Behlen Country livestock duty one) he was more relaxed and containable, but if anything was there to destroy, he would.

He's doing well in his new home, thank God. His new owner is home a lot so that works.

ETA: my own Tristan (Dachshund) has anxiety but it's not SA type. He's fine loose in the house, it's more...like, related to the stress of eating (fed 2x a day) and he's always kind of had anxiety/stress.
He licks things all the time, and he shredded the arms of our love seat and couch.
The Thundershirt did not work for him, either, and he's now on Fluoxetine (prozac) for the anxiety. It helps, I believe. But this morning he was gnawing on his toenail again. He's currently licking one of the dog beds.
*sigh*
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/20/12 04:46 AM

Oh crap, Lisa I am so sorry for you both hugging hugging

I do wonder if perhaps some medication may help her? I'm so sorry, poor little girl hugging
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/20/12 07:51 AM

Aw crap, poor Jazzy! To be so scared to be without you, that is so sad. teary The door frame, well, that's fixable. But so hard to fix fear. frown

I wish I had advice hugging
Posted by: arycrest

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/20/12 11:27 AM

grouphug hugging Lisa & Jazz hugging grouphug
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/20/12 12:22 PM

Thank you. Today after breakfast, he just starting shivering, thinking it was an alone day.

Yep, so hard to fix fear frown
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/20/12 01:37 PM

hugging
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/21/12 09:27 AM

I missed the troubling updates. Shooot, Jazzy is so smart and so aware, I guess sometimes that brain power comes with sensitivity. Fear can reach down through all kinds of good sense, I believe it's quite different from some other behavioral concerns. It's too close to survival.

I wish things would get better....
MJ
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/21/12 11:04 AM

Well, darn it, this is not what I was hoping to read! I'm so sorry for both of you. frown SA is so tough. Rafi's has been worse lately because I've been so stressed out and we've been traveling so much. You just wish you could get in there brain and flip the switch from "I'm scared" to "I'm ok!". hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/21/12 07:16 PM

Thank you guys, it's hard.

I'm sorry Ruth that Rafi is having a hard time too frown

Yes Mary Jane, it's a very primal fear. People don't undertand, but using the word survival is perfect. At least I left through the garage door and not the front door, it will be awhile before it gets fixed.

So back to square one.

She cannot be left alone unless it's during our training. If I start now, I have about 2 months of daycare, and a month of semester break to get her better for next term. During break, I can dramatically reduce daycare, and during the cooler months, I can condition her the crate in the car.

I am starting today, leaving the room for periods of time while she is in the crate. I was not able to do that when she first got here, so I guess that is something.

I pulled out Indy's camping crate so she would have more room. I can't believe how long she is. She doesn't need the height, but the floor works perfect.

Questions: would you leave her alone with a new long bully stick, and for how long? I feel comfortable leaving the house for a few minutes, but not sure how long I would stretch that. Maybe it depends on how long it takes her to make it really short.

Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/21/12 08:31 PM

When I first adopted Rafi and discovered the SA one of the owners of a local pet store gave me a huge, smelly, real bone for him. I gave him to him, went out for 2 hours and came home to find that he had eaten the entire bone and shredded the crate pad. I think that he was so anxious that he couldn't stop chewing. Later, he didn't feel so great. sick

So, the answer is...don't leave her too long of a bully stick. Can you cut it into smaller pieces?

p.s. Nowadays, when Rafi's SA flares up it just means that he drools while I'm gone and is very fussy when I get home. He isn't destructive or anything, thank goodness!
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/21/12 08:35 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa

So back to square one.

I pulled out Indy's camping crate so she would have more room. I can't believe how long she is. She doesn't need the height, but the floor works perfect.

Questions: would you leave her alone with a new long bully stick, and for how long? I feel comfortable leaving the house for a few minutes, but not sure how long I would stretch that. Maybe it depends on how long it takes her to make it really short.


Lisa, have you ever thought of putting a camera up and recording her behavior while you are gone? This way you may be able to figure out her threshold of when she gets nervous and then fearful. There may also be some clues as to what may set her off? Just a thought. This may give you some insight and direction on how to help her best.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/21/12 08:43 PM

Ruth, the chewing anxiety thing, Jazz does the same thing. I used to think she was chewing because she enjoyed it so much, but it really turned out to be an outlet for the anxiety.

I guess when I get to the point where I can leave her for more than minutes at a time, I will then switch to something Kong-like.

Elvi, I think I will have to set a recorder when I start leaving her for more than 30 seconds at a time. I wish I had something fancy that I could remotely watch from my phone. How hard would that be to set up with the laptop? Anyone know? Of course, having a blackberry which nobody supports might be an issue too.
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/21/12 09:00 PM

https://www.dropcam.com/ --this is for Android or IPhone but I think you can also view it on your computer as it is shown here: https://www.dropcam.com/how
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/21/12 09:20 PM

Originally Posted By: LMS
https://www.dropcam.com/ --this is for Android or IPhone but I think you can also view it on your computer as it is shown here: https://www.dropcam.com/how

Doesn't support BB frown

http://support.dropcam.com/entries/21746706-is-there-a-dropcam-blackberry-app
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/21/12 09:39 PM

How about this one? http://platinum-cctv.com/Blackberry_Security_Camera_Viewing.asp . I don't know what kind of camera you would be using. Have not had the time to read in detail.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/21/12 10:10 PM

I will have to look and see what I need to use that. It's even a free app, but i have to figure out the webcam part.

Thanks Elvi, this helps getting pointed in the right direction!
Posted by: LJsMom

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/23/12 07:36 PM

Skype and a webcam?
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/how-to-use-skype-as-a-covert-snooper/

http://www.pcworld.com/article/242573/how_to_set_up_your_own_remote_home_monitoring_system.html

I have no clue about BB and Skype. The picture would be tiny? Tablet? Kindle with wifi (if you have wifi available at work?)
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/23/12 10:42 PM

Just looked it up, doesn't work with BB frown (Might have to go Android next time if the new BB release isn't a success.)

WiFi won't be enough - I need to be able to watch right out front and down the street and to the store here in the area. Have to be able to do that before I can leave her for work frown
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/27/12 09:35 PM

SA Update...

Jazz has not been left alone for a week and a day, she has been in daily daycare since Wed, will go all week next week.

It was to the point, that even at night, she would tart shivering at mealtime, which seems to be one trigger for anxiety.

Turns out that at daycare, during "naptime"/quiet time, they put Jazz in a large "community kennel" with other dogs. She didn't do well at first (surprise!), but I doing well now. The other day, she started whining and barking when they didn't pay attention to her, and they didn't let her get away with it.

I am already noticing improvements at home from their work, and also the removal of fear of being left in the kennel.

No shivering at mealtimes, though she still does it in the car on the way in.

I am also feeding in the crate, but no with the door closed while I move around the house, which is going well. Wed will be a week for that, and then I'll step that up somehow.

Once I put indy's crate liner in there, he now goes in there to dig and chew her antler. A few minutes ago, she went in there to sleep, but had to come out and chew on the antler some more.

So, an expensive proposition, but we might be headed in a better direction. The less stress on me is HUGE.
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/27/12 09:46 PM

This sounds really good! I'm glad you found a daycare with people who know what they're doing.

Are you doing any of the SA protocols at home still? Like gathering up your things and giving treats but not leaving?
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/27/12 09:53 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
The less stress on me is HUGE.


Brava!
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/27/12 10:47 PM

Progress! groovy I am so glad day care is turning out to be such a positive experience!
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/28/12 08:29 AM

Excellent, and worth the money if it helps in the long run!
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/28/12 11:18 AM

Lisa, I am glad you are seeing progress even though at an additional and unplanned expense. It definitely helps to have people who know what they are doing help. Hopefully, soon Jazzy will be comfortable enough to be left alone at home without a problem. Hugs
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/28/12 12:19 PM

Thank you guys, I hope I can do this sensitization thing right so she can be left alone, eventually!

Ruth, no, I had stopped everything but leaving her in the crate, door closed, and leaving the room, which is huge in itself. If I can't leave the room, there is no way I can leave the house frown

I think next week I will start going upstairs while he is in her crate and change up those circumstances.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/28/12 04:57 PM

Thinking more about what Ruth said, I will start adding the keys, and also moving my backpack around as part of the next step, as well as putting her in the crate with the door closed at times other than meal times.

Removing the fear/terror she had from being left alone all day, twice a week, I think has made a big difference.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 10/29/12 08:33 AM

This is great news smile
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/12/12 01:33 PM

Just updating....

Daily day care is very stressful for her, she was starting to get worse instead of better. She had a weird anxiety attack at agility (shades of max frown ). Turns out she had a pretty good UTI (might be vaginitis, vet is not sure). No bacteria seen, but a very high WBC. We treated with cipro, it came back again, treated again. Completely changed her personality, the vet that hasn't seen her but once had noticed what a different dog she was after the cipro. She is just coming off the cipro now, so I hope that it doesn't return. My folks, several of the neighbors and folks have school have also noticed the huge difference in her overall from this too. I knew something was wrong, but there was nothing obvious. She did pee once in the car, and a couple times during the night, but it was not clear if that was a housetraining issue or excitement pee'ing. She showed practically no symptoms - I took her in for a blood panel and UA for a baseline when she turned a year old.

I started her on St. John's Wort for real for the anxiety, since the next step would have to be drugs. We are at about day 6 or so. About day 4, she started walking towards the door at daycare instead of running away from it when I drop her off. I don't know if this will be the answer, but I have to try. The vet also has her trying the DAP collar.

She found a way to escape the yard, so I have stopped working on leaving her unsupervised back there for the time being. I have a lot of work to cut back the neighbor's bushes before I can put a screen on the fence (wrought iron), and I'm making slow progress, just gave up and sprayed some roundup the other day.

Not much time to work on desensitizing at home, by the time we get home and we recover from the day, so I am just working on leaving her alone for short periods of time, moving the keys when I think about it. I will have about a month off between semesters, and will be able to hit this hard then.

For now, she is not hurting herself (though I do worry with all the collar grabs she is exposed to there), she is not hurting the house. I guess the only thing she is hurting is my pocket book for the time being. Still feeding in the crate - she loves her crate, just doesn't love being alone.
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/12/12 05:23 PM

Wow, Lisa, I don't know what to say. All these challenges. Girl, I really do hope next year will make up for all this stuff that got dished out to you this year.

Poor Jazzy, UTI's are so not fun. I can't take Cipro. I had an allergic reaction to it a few years ago that left me with strong symptoms of a UTI but no UTI evidence medically. The doctors were baffled. Did an ultra sound inside and out without anything found. Yet the symptoms persisted for quite some time because of my reaction to CIPRO. I wonder if this is the same scenario for Jazzy. It took me over a year to completely recover from it because the doctors were clueless. I lost about 40 pounds in the process of recovering.

What helped me was liver support supplements, probiotics, watching acidity levels (ph balance) and believe it or not using vagisil wipes (they restore ph balance in that area).

Maybe ask the doc to switch antibiotic in case she is allergic to it?

As always, wishing for a mucho good things coming your way to make up for all this difficult challenges and of course perfect health for Jazzy
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/12/12 05:33 PM

Aww, poor Jazzy!! Nothing in life is ever easy is it? Funny the side effects medicines can have. I'm convinced the Clindamycin that Rosa was on caused her ED to flare up, and we still haven't gotten her back to her regular activity level. Sounds like Jazzy is headed back to normal though? Fingers crossed.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/13/12 04:19 AM

hugging hugging Poor sweet Jazz and poor you. I so hope she comes back to her normal asap hugging
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/13/12 08:44 AM

Good for you for tryibng St John's wort. It may be helping, or, just more time at daycare may be helping. Whatever it is, paws here are crossed that she improves. I don't blame you for trying to avoid drugs. Even if it ever comes to that, maybe 3 months of them and she's got a new emotional memory of how she feels when left alone. No matter what, we are all sending good thoughts for you and Jazzy! peacesign
Posted by: shepnterrier

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/13/12 12:46 PM

Roundup in your yard? Does the dog have access to the sprayed area? That would worry me.

Dunno what the setup is and how large, but there are mechanical ways to cutting back bushes fast, like an electric hedge cutter (I bought mine refurbished on Amazon) and, if they are thicker branches, a branch cutter.
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/13/12 01:14 PM

Lisa,

I am just reading trying to understand how one copes with SA when there are real world commitments like working. I hate to see that Jazmine had an infection and drug reaction just as you're working out a separation strategy.

Does it make any sense to try a short term and a long term solution? I mean try SJW and daycare for now and then when you have your month break, work through the conditioning that may solve the problem.

I do know that trying to change a dog's mind and work and also go to the grocery now and then took a lot of effort for me.

best wishes to you both,
MJ
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/13/12 01:23 PM

Thanks everyone, it's really a pain in the butt to not be able to leave her alone. Ever. Yesterday I left her in the house behind the closed door while I went into the garage for about a minute and coming back in, she's already in her "getting ready to panic" mode. So I will keep working on that.

Elvi, not good about the cipro. My dog indy had a severe reaction to abx in this class. Not sure about Jazz yet. So far so good, but really need to be aggresive once she comes off of them so she doesn't have to go back. I have a feeling this will be stubborn, since the first round didn't do it. Vet did say, treat for a week after symptoms are gone. He also said if this doesn't do it, it might be vaginities and we might have to do some rinses, so maybe I need to try those wipes for her. Her urine is very acidic, which I think is better at keeping away bacteria, though I think I would rather it be a touch more alkaline.

Sarah, I know, not very happy about the roundup at all. I'm able to keep her out of that area until the things are cut. They have to be cut by hand, and I have to keep them from growing back and wrecking the small wire fence I'll be putting on the border. Just not happy about any of it. Over the years, have pent too many work hours on the neighbor's bushes.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/13/12 02:39 PM

MJ, I didn't see your post earlier.

Yes, I think I have to do that, short term, long term thing. I'm just really nervous that I won't make progres over the break.

You are right, changing the way a dog thinks is not something that is easy, or quick frown

I sometimes wonder if she is more afraid of being alone, or me being unprotected (by her of course). Maybe both, not sure I'm thinking of this the right way.

She went downstairs before me this morning, this I what I saw when I went down:

Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/13/12 02:56 PM

Awee, she loves that sun. Smart girl.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/13/12 04:08 PM

She does love the sun!

I forgot to mention, I have stopped all heeling work with her, and only working on things like recall, or "coming with" when there is a specific purpose.

Yesterday, for the first time, she didn't come when called, and almost ran off the court. NOT good in general, but a tep in the right direction for her. I'm having a heck of a time getting her to work at a distance, which I think is part of this.
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/13/12 04:50 PM

Oh, she is so pretty! And carrying the weight of the world on those little brown shoulders. frown
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/13/12 05:07 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
S
Yesterday, for the first time, she didn't come when called, and almost ran off the court. NOT good in general, but a tep in the right direction for her. I'm having a heck of a time getting her to work at a distance, which I think is part of this.


Could it be that she is a bit overwhelmed with not feeling well but also dealing with the other issues, etc. Maybe concentrating on only a few things right now to give her space to recover and find her balance again would help her. Just a thought.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/14/12 03:01 AM

Elvi, it's not real intense training, just everyday stuff working on during the week. We both get a good amount of down time, I'm just limping along the rest of the term....

Leah, a good way to put that, keeping an eye on everything, and very serious in her job as watch dog.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/14/12 03:55 AM

frown wub So unfair, she should just be able to 'be' a puppy frown
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/14/12 10:46 AM

Lisa, my heart just breaks for you and Jazzy. You both are so meant for each other and all this stuff getting in the way of your being able to relax and just enjoy each other. It feels so helpless not to be able to extend any solutions. I wish all this could be resolved with just a hug or something. My goodness, I so hope all this will come to an end quickly and Jazzy will realize that you won't leave her, that you will always be with her and that there is no reason to fear. She is such a beautiful baby. I so love to see her resting in the sun. I bet that feels so good to her on more than one level.

Thinking of you both.
Posted by: Natalie559

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/16/12 12:25 PM

I am sorry you are dealing with this Lisa, I didn't know. It's a tough situation, but you'll make it through, I just know you will. Hang in there.
Posted by: SeanRescueMom

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/22/12 03:59 PM

Lisa, I can relate in part to the SA. Although not the same situation but when we first adopted Sean ions ago he had very bad SA. Fortunately I was on summer vacation from work, i.e. school. Since I know you teach as well I know you understand. How long is your winter break? We have 2 wks. off and every little bit helps. One of the teachers I work with also had a dog with S.A. and an elderly neighbor of hers volunteered to come in several times throughout the day to play and keep her dog company. Don't know if this is a possibility for you but just wanted to throw it out there and let you know I'm thinking of you. hug
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/23/12 02:55 PM

Thank you guys, we are plugging away here. It's aalmost like we are too meant to be and she has latched onto that o tightly. Whenever we leave, even if I tell her where we are going (someplace she likes), he is okay for the first 5 or 10 minutes. Then the next 10 or 15 she has terrible tremors. Towards the end of the drive, she has settled some. (Everything is at least 30 minutes away).

Progress is slow, but there is progress. At work I was able to leave her in my office alone, close the door, run down the hall to get something off the printer, and return without her making a noise. That was HUGE. I went to the grocery store, was able to park so she could watch the door. She yipped and yowled when I left, but when I came out, she was quiet, and watching the door (off course started up when she aw me), but neither of those would have been posible earlier.

Sean getting past that is encouraging! Break will be hard because I have to remember to work really diligently on this. I will still have to take her to day care once or twice a week so that I can run errands and do things that would be tough for her. I would like to get her used to being alone in the car too.

Unfortunately, all my neighbors are too active to help much at this point frown I don't remember if I mentioned it earlier, but when indy was young, I was able to leave her at my folks' quite a bit. But right now that's a safety hazard, for various reasons because of their ages and disabilities. Sigh, I need to move closer to work if I am going to continue to have dogs I think....
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/24/12 05:21 AM

Wow that progress with being able to leave her in your office is HUGE! Maybe she just feels less anxious when not at home?

How is the St Johns going? Have you noticed a difference yet?
Posted by: Braverhund

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/24/12 09:24 AM

Lisa, I see this: small bits of progress.. small bits of progress.. and MORE small bits of progress! Really, you may not be where you wish to be with her SA yet, but you two are making strides that are cumulative! goodjob The daycare, the St. John's, the routines, the telling her what's coming next, every little thing you do is helping. I'm continuing to send good thoughts Jazzy's way, for continued success! The office situation is indeed huge! Great work! cheers
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/24/12 12:40 PM

I don't think I could leave either of my two in a closed room in a place that wasn't home without them making a sound! thumbup
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/25/12 06:19 PM

Yes, thank you, these are definite positive steps!

Last night she was rough housing, and I wasn't paying attention, and she spilled a near full cup of coffee on the rug (ugh!). I was able to throw her in the crate (near the area) and clean up, without a peep from her - I was astounded.

Today, raking and mowing the front yard, I had her on a tie out before the neighborhood kids came out. (Funny how they can completely change the compoure of a quiet Sunday afternoon!). I had to put her in an xpen, and I was able to work at a distance from her, even occassionally out of sight from her, again, without a peep. She still got anxious, till rewarding for good behaviour, but this is huge, conidering the first time I tried that, the then 12 pound dog sscaled the ide of the 3 ft xpen out of fear of separation, and then when put back screamed her little head off.

This may not get fixed over break, or even in the next several months, but hopefully by next year, most of this will be a memory.

I complain about the cost of daycare, because it really is a hardship right now, but I guess it's a bit like boarding school right now. I have this over the top little one, and I'm single, they are not only keeping her safe while I am gone, but are helping train her too. She is getting very good in a variety of situations, and I'm not sure I could have done that alone with my schedule.
Posted by: LJsMom

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/25/12 08:41 PM

Progress!
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/26/12 03:42 AM

I know you are so experienced in all things dogs (and I am not) but as usual a random thought that came to mind...do you think Jazzy may be picking up on any anxiousness when you try and crate her? I just thought as I was reading about the coffee that neither one of you had time to stress beforehand? You just put her straight in there while you cleaned up. Rambling and probably completely wrong smile
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 11/26/12 11:09 AM

Bianca, I'm jut plugging my way through this, certainly LOTS to learn!

They have been crating her at daycare, and just the day before I had her in the crate while I was exercising, so I think it's *actual* progress, which is great.

She hasn't been to daycare since laast Monday. Completely freaking in the car this morning frown just gotta appreciiate the inches of progress at times like this I guess.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 12/22/12 04:47 PM

Just updating...

The St. John's Wort was (and still is!) a big help. Now after using that for awhile, and 3 months of doggie daycare, she can't wait to go. Instead of running away from the door when we get there, she lunges towards it, which makes me very happy.

I am on break for several weeks, but she will still go once or twice a week so that we don't lose ground and I can then run errands on those days. Next term, 4 long days at work, so we'll have to continue with daycare on those days. Maybe by next year, sigh.

I can leave her in the car for one short errand on each outing, but that is not the most pleasant experience for her. I am hoping to work on that more as a first step.

I had ordered some Tawzer videos when they had a big sale, and watched the one on SA by Dodman the other night. He talks about how the counter conditioning for cues doesn't work, and that has been my experience here. Dogs are too smart and much better than we are at these things, they quickly learn when it means when you are leaving and when you aren't. Might help for mild cases, but doesn't do much for more severe cases.

He did suggest that you don't feed the breakfast meal until you are ready to leave (so they eat when you are gone, I worry about stress eating) - I have always fed, then walked for elimination, then left them with a kong. Not sure about if I'll change that. If I can get a doggie door up and trust her with that access, might be doable. Easier when you feed a breakfast that can be stuffed in a kong.

A gave her some B12 the other day, and it seemed to make a big difference. Googling, some people with anxiety have noticed the same thing. Makes me wonder about these anxious GSDs that also have digestive issues - wonder if B12 would help. Anyway, trying some B12 therapy this week.

Definite progress, but still a long ways to go. I am fortunate I am able to squeak by with the daycare, but will need a new car soon, payments again, so worried about that, always something.

She is doing great in agility. The trainer say if we can get her past her anxiety (when people enter the room and move around), she could compete. She is smart, very quick, and receptive to commands - I am probably the main thing that holds her back smile She has alway been bit of a mountain goat, loves to climb high, and the agility seems to encourage this. She is such a fun little dog wub

Here is what I call her meerkat llok, though it's more obvious when he doesn't have a vest on!





(Hehe, snuck in a Santa pic smile I need to scan her "official" pic at some point.)
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 12/22/12 05:02 PM

The Dodman video had some interesting stuff in it. He mentioned one study where they could predict with a high degree of accuracy which shelter dogs would have SA when they went home with their new owner. It would habve been true with Jazz. When I first saw her, she sat back and barked at me. After spending time with her (and liver treats), when I went back to say goodbye and tell her I'd be back, she was already going ballistic. Againt the cage. Very different behaviour, and I remember taking note of it, but clearly not knowing what it fully meant.

He also talked about how the dogs that have a lot of emotional nouirishment and love and closeness typcially don't develop this, but those that have an interuption in that process of learning about confidence and separation do - could even be a stay at the vet for a puppy illness. Most SA peaks older than Jazz, at 2 or 3 years, though there is a young group, which understandably, being dumped on the streets at 4 months old, and who knows what before, she is in.

He alo talked about older, senior dogs developing SA as they age. For that group, he seees medicating as the best option.
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Separation Anxiety - 12/22/12 05:16 PM

I can't contribute to an SA discussion, except to say it sounds like Jazz is getting better (in day care at least).

What I did want to say is what a distinguished profile she has (head set?). Look at the proporations of her head and ears and neck-pretty pretty girl.

MJ
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 12/22/12 05:33 PM

Thank you Mary Jane, she really is a pretty girl. I don't like this cold weather, she needs to wear something for warmth, so I don't get to see "all of her" much of the time.

She was really good with Santa, though wouldn't sit in his lap or let him lift her! But she took treats, and did sit right up next to him.

This SA is something else. How it can turn a wonderful dog in most aspects, into thi little terror, because of the terror that the dog feels.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 12/23/12 02:25 AM

I think that sounds like a pretty good update!

It's so cute to imagine her busting to go and play with her friends at daycare wub She is the most adorable meercat wub wub
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 12/26/12 06:04 PM

Woo! Hoo!

Yesterday I was able to leave jazz briefly in my parent' house while I went outside and moved my car, and I don't think she made a noise, and she didn't greet me like a maniac when I came in. A definite huge step!
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Separation Anxiety - 12/26/12 07:02 PM

Jazz and the birds - those were so cute. Maybe she needs a bird to keep her comapny at home. whistling

Sounds like thre are many improvements for her. You have come a long way with her.
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 12/26/12 07:27 PM

I love her outfit. So pretty. wub
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Separation Anxiety - 12/27/12 06:55 AM

Oh she is so cute, I love her coat!!

I can totally see meercat. smile
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 12/27/12 12:21 PM

Thanks smile

Lol, maybe she is a dachshund/meerkat mix wub
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 01/11/13 04:04 PM

I posted this in another thread, but wanted to put this here too:

I was watching a DVD by the behaviourist Dodman, where he discusses the development SA, and he notes that in dogs and humans, studies show that a close loving attachment during their development does *not* create separation anxiety, but just the opposite. However, in SA, it seems that most of the advice given include things like you should ignore your dog, not be overly attached, don't let them sleep on the bed, etc.

So, with Jazz, just by instinct, I've been there when she has needed me (which was A LOT), though I have encouraged activities that build confidence and independence. I've probably done a lot that is counter to much of the advice that you read on the internet. However, after listening to Dodman, I see now why this is working.

Before she wouldn't stray too far from me, then she started going further but would still come back immediately, and now she often won't come when I call. She is really developing her independence, and when I get frustrated with that crazy I just remember what a good thing this is, as compared to where she was when we first started.

She is enjoying daycare, actively playing and excited when she gets there (though she is not going very often during winter break), roaming far from me, and I can leave her in the house behind a closed door for about 5 minutes with no noises, though she is very anxious when I get back.

The other day we had a play date with a couple of whippets (well, they played ball and she ran around them not knowing what to do), and when I left the play area to get rid of the poop bag, in clear view and not far from her, she immediately started to panic, so we still have a ways to go, but happy so far to see some definite progress. Right now, she is lying in the other room, because she likes the sun in morning more than she needs to be with me. Yay!

Oh, yeah, later I want to add a review of some of the dvd's that I have been watching, in cases any of this is helpful to others. I look back at the damage to the crates, the blood, the torn up door jam, and I'm so happy that I am able to do the daycare. This has been such an experience shocked
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety - 01/12/13 05:54 AM

What progress party Just think that you have both just started this journey and how far you have already come smile
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 01/12/13 04:11 PM

Thank you bianca!
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 01/12/13 04:50 PM

happyboogie Lisa I am so happy to hear Jazz is making such good progress. Every step, even if small, is a step into the right direction. You are obviously doing a lot of things right because you are seeing the payoff. Way to go, Lisa and Jazzy!!!! Here is to many, many such breakthroughs with a perfect recovery all around.
hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 01/14/13 05:01 PM

Thank you Elvi, I am so relieved to see progress, I was so worried there for awhile! Once I realized that with severe SA, this really is a much longer process than most sites acknowledge, it helped a lot.
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 01/14/13 07:18 PM

I think a big part is also the emotional challenge with SA. We see our babies suffer and want to reassure them that they are safe. With a human, we can just talk to them or get them to counseling. With animals that is not possible. So, I am sure the process is not only slow (because it takes time to figure out what works) but also emotionally draining. I am so glad we are in the age of easy accessibility to information to where we can learn about varies strategies and also read people's experiences of what worked and what didn't. What you both are learning is invaluable and who knows, may even save the life of another dog one day because their owner knows you or reads about your experiences here or wherever you post. All this to say that this is not for nothing and will benefit not only Jazzy but potentially way beyond Jazzy.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 01/21/13 12:11 PM

This morning I was woken up by a little paw on my shoulder, wanting to crawl under the covers, because it was cold. Usually I wake up and cover her during the night, and I didn't last night, and it was cold. It made me think a bit.

When jazz first arrived, she had to sleep close, under the covers, and would burrow deep down to my feet if I let her. I was not going to stop a dog that craved and had a need for closeness, at least with her background.

We had the hernia fiasco, and by the end of that, she was wanting to sleep not under the cover with me, but on her own, though next to me head area.

Recently, she has chosen more the foot of the bed, separating herself a little further, lol, except when it got cold!

So interesting, on her own terms, a her confidence has built, her different choices in sleeping patterns. I notice it a bit around the house too, though that one is tougher, unless there I sun in the front room, she still wants to be very close.
Posted by: TimberWolf

Re: Separation Anxiety - 01/21/13 12:19 PM

Maybe baby steps but steps forward nevertheless.
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Separation Anxiety - 01/21/13 12:38 PM

Whoa, I'm way behind in this thread but it really sounds like Jazz is coming into her own, bit by bit. These things always have setbacks and it's a lifelong process. I remember the first time Judy tried to take Rafi out to pee in the morning. He refused to go outside, raced back upstairs, flew onto the bed and lay on top of me! rofl And this was a dog who wasn't even allowed in the bed! It took several years but now he will actually go for a walk with her, from my house when I'm home, without screaming his head off and pulling her back to the house.

I think you are doing a great job and listening to her and letting her tell you what she needs. She has made a lot of progress since she came home! And, of course, she is as cute as ever!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety - 01/21/13 01:16 PM

Thank you Elvi and Ruth!

Yes Ruth, what a journey. I can imagine rafi doing that, without exaggeration, I see it in jazz too. Once I resigned my self to a very long term project, it all made more sense. I do hope she'll be able to be home alone eventually though.
Posted by: shepnterrier

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 01/21/13 05:04 PM

A success report: When Elly came, she screamed non stop when she was crated and I even left the room, when I took out the trash and she stayed indoors, and of course when I left the house for longer. While I was gone she screamed non-stop the whole time, too, and was emotionally exhausted when I came home.

We worked on it, as mentioned earlier in this thread. It gradually became less and less. No more screaming when I leave since the fall. She still makes noise when I come back into the house, but is quiet while she hears the car pull in. That we both can live with, and that might go away, too.

Elly was with her parents and litter mates until 4 months, and had never experienced anything bad from humans. She had the attachment but had never been challenged to cope with anything stressful appropriate for her age. She had no coping mechanism for anything. Her low frustration tolerance is still a challenge in every day life. But we keep at it, have fun together, and are making progress.

Confidence building is a key. I highly recommend training by shaping as a confidence booster for a dog with SA.
Posted by: shepnterrier

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 01/21/13 05:11 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
The other day we had a play date with a couple of whippets (well, they played ball and she ran around them not knowing what to do), and when I left the play area to get rid of the poop bag, in clear view and not far from her, she immediately started to panic, so we still have a ways to go, but happy so far to see some definite progress.

Research has shown that dyadic play works best for dogs, especially if they are not members of a pack. Three is a crowd, usually two play together and either ignore or even bully the third. Neither is good for confidence, obviously. So if you can make play dates, I'd arrange for play in dyads only for now, just her and one other dog who has great play skills. If by chance she is the 'third' in a park or so, I'd move on rather than her feeling excluded.

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
Right now, she is lying in the other room, because she likes the sun in morning more than she needs to be with me. Yay!

Woohoo! Great work!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 01/22/13 12:51 AM

I tried doing what you had posted earlier, but she just wasn't read for it. I think each situation just has to go at the pace of the individual dog, and I'm happy that we are making progress. Part of the issue was I was trying to make something work with the crate, and that was the wrong way to do it. In fact, most of the behaviourists that I've been watching and reading say no crate in for most dogs. I've been trying to find my notes from the videos, but I can't seem to find them, hope I didn't accidentally throw them away!

Originally Posted By: shepnterrier
Research has shown that dyadic play works best for dogs, especially if they are not members of a pack. Three is a crowd, usually two play together and either ignore or even bully the third. Neither is good for confidence, obviously. So if you can make play dates, I'd arrange for play in dyads only for now, just her and one other dog who has great play skills. If by chance she is the 'third' in a park or so, I'd move on rather than her feeling excluded.

That makes a lot of sense to me. Luckily, these three seem to hit it off really well. The male just wants to chase his frisbee, and Jazz and the female are getting along great. Surprised me, I thought she would want to play more with the male, but she just adores the female smile
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 03/06/13 01:45 AM

Just a quick update.

Jazz is having some health issues, will post about them when I learn more, but the holistic vet today put her on a few things for anxiety:

http://www.thorne.com/Products/Mood-Sleep-Support/Mood_Enhancement/prd~SP652.jsp
(For her general anxiety.)

http://www.ayurvedicherbsdirect.com/heart-formula-90-ct-banyan-botanicals-p-103.html
(For balance, since she is a fire dog in TCM.)

And an herbal to help support her spleen because her tongue is pale and pulses off.

It would be nice if all of this helped with the anxiety.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 03/06/13 02:05 AM

Oh, I forgot to add...

She said that fire dogs (like jazz), wig out when left alone, so I need to know she'll need daycare, or some place to go during the day, or a companion. GSDs are commonly fire dogs, Max was. I think, being part small companion dog mix, compounds the problem for her, if I understood the implication correctly.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 03/06/13 02:29 AM

Hoping that these new additions do help your sweet girl hugging

Or a companion.....laugh crossedfingers
Posted by: Natalie559

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 03/06/13 09:03 AM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
Jazz is having some health issues


hugging

Has the SA improved at all?
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 03/06/13 09:22 AM

I have been thinking about Jazmine, in part because Jean has posted some pictures of Nico, another small(er) hearthrob. I'm sorry to hear that she has any health problems, but I'm glad you have a treatment plan and truly hope it works.

Jazz has such a good life with you.

MJ
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 03/06/13 11:36 AM

I hope that the new herbals work too. She is better, but there are still issues that make her life difficult. I figure at some point she'll have a companion of some sort, but I want to get her figured out, trained a bit more, and catch up on my finances.

Her SA is really only a lot better when she is on cipro, which is the problem - all sorts of weird things. We have an appt with an internal med vet next tues, the same one that helped me with max.

Funny you should mention pictures MJ - they are all on my dead laptop, which has not been backed up, waiting to see if the tech guy can work his magic frown I do have ome that I've been wanting to post.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 03/06/13 11:44 AM

Tried to get some pics the other day, but she is too fast!


Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 03/06/13 12:53 PM

She is such a doll wub

In one of the dog books I read recently they said that SA is becoming an epidemic in dogs nowadays. It is actually a side effect of domestication. The author said that pretty much every single dog has the potential to develop SA, it is just a matter of teaching them as young puppies that it is okay if you leave them for a while.

I'm not sure if I believe that entirely or not, but it is an interesting perspective.
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 03/06/13 01:44 PM

Jazz us so pretty and so athletic looking. fetch

Sad to know she still has health issues, but hopefully they will be better as she matures.
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 03/07/13 03:34 AM

wub Eeeeee she is so darn sweet!!!! wub
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 03/07/13 05:04 AM

Thank you, she is such a cool dog smile

Originally Posted By: Good_Karma


In one of the dog books I read recently they said that SA is becoming an epidemic in dogs nowadays. It is actually a side effect of domestication. The author said that pretty much every single dog has the potential to develop SA, it is just a matter of teaching them as young puppies that it is okay if you leave them for a while.

I'm not sure if I believe that entirely or not, but it is an interesting perspective.


I think that's an incredibly simplistic way of thinking about SA. I agree that many things can interrupt development and you can teach a dog to have SA, but even if you do everything right, it may not be enough, and you may end up with a SA dog from what I've learned. There is a genetic component to it, and possibly something more physiological?

In Dodman's dvd, there was one breed that he said he's never met a dog of that breed that didn't have SA (Weims? can't remember). He also said that the majority of cases show up as young adults, say 2 or 3, which seems very weird to me and beyond the puppy stage.

I do think there are a lot of problems with domestication that can make separation more difficult and I do think that people can create SA by the way they treat their dogs.

I had a panic attack once in my teens. It was a high stress event, and I think it was triggered by asthma, but I remember being out of control and not understanding at all what was happening. Jazz has little mini panic attacks all of the time, you can see it, but she recovers very quickly, and in public it happens much less frequently than it used to.

Now, is it better because she is more secure? Because her brain chemistry is better with better care and nutrition? She is more mature? I don't know, but there are lots of things I don't understand. Max was like this to a lesser degree, and I understood it much less then.

I wonder if under the surface of a lot of SA cases, there is more going on when the owner is home, it's just that having someone there allows the dog to be secure enough to deal with it better. I dunno.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 03/08/13 03:09 AM

Found this about GABA, which is very interestin, considering low IgA in GSDs, and many experience stress:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16971751/

Jazz gets the trembles in the car on the way in in the morning. After each of the two days that she has had this stuff, it stops fairly early into the drive, though the jury is still out.

I started all the new supps and he was kinda weird, so I'm starting one at a time now, and giving 1/2 a dose of the GABA. I think the amount in a capsule is way to much for , 18 pound dog.
Posted by: Good_Karma

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 03/08/13 06:53 AM

Yeah, like I said I didn't completely agree with the author. This was the same author that also said all you needed to have a well adjusted dog was to socialize well during puppyhood. But I did like the admission that all dogs are indeed prone to SA. That part made sense to me, as we have bred them to be so handler aware, and dependent upon us for everything.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 07/03/13 08:18 PM

I've been thinking about a few things lately.

The first is this article I just saw on FB: http://caninesinaction.com/2011/06/storm...tional-baggage/

I had someone tell me how we creat SA, and that it's all about leadership. I think, for real SA, that's an awfully simplistic point of view, and a bit of a cop-out. I don't for a minute discount that we can create SA, but not all SA is mild or moderate, and it's not all about being the leader. It's about teaching someone, that doesn't understand the world, to face and defeat a fear that is so bad that it makes them vomit, makes them pee or poop, makes them loose all control of their senses.

I've also been thinking about this article: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/06/130621095502.htm and the "secure base" phenomena. Makes perfect sense to me. If I'm around, Jazz is extremely confident, wandering far away from me if we are out in fields, etc.

However, "absent owner" sees a very different dog than they would, even if I am far away from her.

Overall, we do have progress. I still cannot leave her alone, but I have not been able to work on that. (Health issues have intervened and contribute to the anxiety: http://germanshepherdhome.net/forum/ubbt...ways#Post275297 ).

But..... I can crate her in the house for short periods of time. I have left her for short periods of time in the house alone (when the neighbor's dog was loose and I had to bring him home). I am leaving her in the house behind a closed door when I go outside, or the garage, with greater success. At school, I have left her in my office for a few minutes without a peep. These all may sound very trivial, but before all these things would trigger a complete fear freak out.

I haven't been able to find food rewards to help distract her, but, until now, she was too afraid really for me to use this tool. I think we might be ready to ramp this up a bit. I have tried really hard not to suppress who she really is, and what I find, is that she is not really a velcro dog, but a confident, protective, energetic, outgoing girl, as long as she knows I am somewhere present. Secure Base Effect I guess.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 07/27/13 03:13 PM

Just posting this WDJ link here - new SA article:
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/16_8/features/seven-separation-anxiety-myths_20800-1.html
Posted by: PositiveDog

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 07/27/13 05:50 PM

I thought of you when I saw that article in my feed today.

How is Jazz?
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 07/29/13 04:11 AM

Thanks for thinking of us Bonnie.

I really haven't been able to work much on the SA. Just overwhelmed with all the physical issues, and while we are doing some obedience training on the weekend, and her conditioning class during the week, I am just really cautious about using treats. So I haven't done much but a few trips out front that lasted a few minutes.

So, she's fine if I don't have to leave her wink

Actually, they said she did really well at daycare last Thursday - I am making sure she goes a couple day during my break. I was thinking it was some of the homeopathics I tried, but could be the St. John's Wort I restarted might be finally kicking in. That takes awhile to work, particularly since I have her on a low dose. If the SJW works, I'll be able to make ome progress. Otherwise I might have to medicate, but I hate to go through that when I can't commit to all the other stuff, the vet will have us ee a beahviorist, and that's pretty expensive too. There was an incident where I had to leave her in the car at night when I went to see mom in the ER, and she just freaked, so I restarted the SJW. Mom is okay, but not o sure about jazz.

She had a paanic attack when I left her in the front yard today, had to bring the mower to the backyard before I could bring her back. The good news is that when I return, she doesn't scream anymore, but she does a lot of jumping up and is still in a panic. I was able to get her to do some sits, downs, and stands, which is pretty huge for her. I started trying that picking her up from daycare, and she will finally do some quick sits. I guess that's progress.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 08/25/13 04:06 AM

I am going to get this book: http://thebark.com/content/separation-distress-and-dogs-2nd-edition I just need to decide what format I want to get it in. Probably pdf.

I have started working on "waits" in the house where I move out of sight, and once I am confident enough in her "stays", will work on those too. I guess I will try to do this in different places in the house. I think maybe then I might try doing this with her inside and me outside (wait only). Since wait and stay mean that there will be a command following, she knows that she will not be left alone, but that we are continuing to work together. I'm hoping that that will get her used to being alone in a room without me. She actually can be in a room without me, but only on her terms, and this will put things more on my terms and have her accept that.

Then I'm hoping I can add distractions (like a kong, without any command), and work on leaving her alone for periods at a time. She is too severe still to even try the things in Patricia McConnell's book.

I really need to get working on this - while I can use the daycare while I'm at work, if something happens outside of that (like in the evening with the folks), I'm up the creek and she's going to go nuts and hurt herself. Have to say that even leaving her at the daycare is very stressful for her, but after she is there for a bit, she does settle.

Sure would be nice to be able to leave her in the house - what a relief that would be, on so many different levels shocked
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 08/25/13 05:05 AM

hugging So wish I lived closer, I could be the emergency dog-sitter hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 08/25/13 03:23 PM

That would be great Auntie bianca smile

It's frustrating, because I know even the trainers here don't fully "get it". I do feel better knowing that some of the best trainers have faced this (and written about it). Max had anxiety, Jazz has terror, though I do think she is able to work on it now, if I can find the emotional energy.

Jazz's old agility instructor just recently put a rescue dog of hers down because of her SA frown
Posted by: Mary Jane

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 08/25/13 05:08 PM

I am surprised that some trainers don't comprehend the depth of Jazz' pain. You are quite articulate in describing her behavior to us. I guess her confidence in you when you're together might mask something, but I really don't know enough to judge.

Whatever scarred (I mean scarred, not frightened) Jazz when she was very young, she has since found paradise. I don't know how dogs think, but I can imagine she might be afraid to lose it.

take care,
MJ
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 08/25/13 09:42 PM

MJ, you are very astute!

When she is with me, she is very confident, so it probably is hard to imagine. It really doesn't make logical sense that a dog would have such a reaction, so maybe I get it.

Just being alone on the streets at such a young age, must have been very scary! I hope she is past that after this time, and I hope she knows she is safe here, and hopefully we are just now trying to deal with the conditioned response. Lots of hope!
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 08/26/13 05:11 AM

Lisa I know that in a perfect world if money were never an issue, do you think somehow 'finding' a suitable dog would be helpful for Jazzy? I know that would be hard to do but I wonder if she had a buddy that was always with her if it may help. But then I think it would be super hard to find a 'stable' dog that couldn't pick up on her fears etc? hugging hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 08/26/13 02:52 PM

bianca, if I knew that it would work, I would do it. I would save money just because of the daycare!! But I'm afraid that I'll just have two dogs, and still at least one with issues.

Her shaking is less, but her anxiety has increased. I'm thinking that the shaking is diet related, and the anxiety, well, complicated. BUT, I have not been giving the Standard Process thyroid support (off all of those for awhile before the addison's test). Hopefully the thyroid support will help with some of the anxiety, and will look into some of the other support now (like the l-theanine).
Posted by: bianca

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 08/27/13 03:43 AM

Yes I did wonder that frown hugging
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Separation Anxiety (Jazz) - 02/02/14 06:01 PM

I'm going to lock this, as it seems I've start part two of this thread here: http://germanshepherdhome.net/forum/ubbt...tion#Post307148