Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized?

Posted by: LifeAsMe

Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 05:04 PM

Do probiotics for dogs need to be coated or stabilized to survive their stomach acids and work properly?

What kind do you use?
Posted by: GrandJan

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 06:40 PM

I don't use any in pill form because, thankfully, my dogs seem to have cast iron stomachs! Either that, or I have figured out what I positively can't give them (which usually turns out to be some form of people-food!). I do, however, give them non-fat yogurt every day.
Posted by: LifeAsMe

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 06:48 PM

They get yogurt already. I was discussing this with Lisa and she suggested giving Banshee probiotics because we're giving her other meds that could be killing the good bacteria.
Posted by: LJsMom

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 06:53 PM

I'm glad you asked this question because I was wondering the same thing.

I've been using AccuFlora from Costco. They are not coated.
Posted by: LifeAsMe

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 06:54 PM

Is coated the same as stabilized? Or is stabilized something that is done in the process of creating the probiotics?

Where is that Ruth when you need her!? LOL
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 06:58 PM

For really high powered, effective probiotics I use: http://www.ojibwatea.com/zc139/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=21

Cleo gets that and so does my partner's dog. Rafi is getting petdophilus right now. I bought it for Cleo and it wasn't working so well for her but he does fine on it.

I also have used the probiotic pearls for the dogs.

There is definitely not enough probiotics in yogurt to depend on that, especially when giving antibiotics.
Posted by: LifeAsMe

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 07:03 PM

I knew you would show up! smile

What is the difference between coated and stabilized?
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 07:04 PM

Yes, probiotics are us around here! We all take them. I think I have at least 3 different kinds in the house right now. crazy
Posted by: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 07:06 PM

I use a good grade of Human Probiotics for my dogs. There are strains of Probiotics that are more acid resistant than others, but don't ask me which ones. So I just go with a Good Quality human product.
Posted by: GrandJan

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 07:07 PM

Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow
There is definitely not enough probiotics in yogurt to depend on that, especially when giving antibiotics.

That was going to be my next question. My dogs aren't on any medications - I take that back... Chance is on thyroid medication - but what would be the medications that destroy good bacteria and warrant extra probiotic supplements?
Posted by: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 07:28 PM

Any form of Antibiotic. I also feel that as dogs age they benefit from being given Probiotics.
Posted by: LifeAsMe

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 07:31 PM

Banshee isn't on an antibiotic. She does take tagamet which reduces the stomach acid. The theory was this could be messing with her balance and causing some other problems. So it's possible that probiotics are needed for other meds than just antibiotics?
Posted by: GrandJan

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 07:35 PM

Originally Posted By: Wisc.Tiger_Val
I also feel that as dogs age they benefit from being given Probiotics.

Why? Not arguing - seriously want to know.
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 07:52 PM

Digestive function often gets worse as anyone ages but this is not the case for everyone. I don't think all dogs need probiotics as they age but I do think they help if dogs (or people or cats) are having more trouble with digestion.

Also, probiotics work best when taken in the morning.

And I do think they are warranted with a med that is decreasing stomach acid or any med that is tough on the tummy.
Posted by: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 07:57 PM

LAM, any thing that upset the natural balance of the digestive track is a good place to try Probiotics.

GrandJan, I just feel that as dogs age (humans also) that it is easier for the system to get overloaded with bad bacteria, maybe not enough to see that they need a medication but enough to affect proper digestion. Probiotcs are not a miracle they are just good friendly bacteria, the more good stuff the less room for bad stuff.
Posted by: GrandJan

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 08:13 PM

Thanks Ruth and Val - good advice. Two more questions: if a dog is given an antibiotic and/or any medication that needs to be taken with food, can we assume that a probiotic should then be added? Can it then be stopped when the meds are stopped - or perhaps given an extra week or so until the tummy gets regulated?
Posted by: LifeAsMe

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 08:20 PM

I kept taking probiotics after taking antibiotics for myself. I think when giving probiotics with antibiotics that we're just keeping up with what is lost but afterwards we are actually repopulating.
Posted by: BowWowMeow

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 08:31 PM

One addition: give probiotics when you give any kind of dewormer. Talk about taking all of the good stuff out of the digestive tract! sick

And I agree to continue with the probiotics for a couple of weeks post meds. And be sure to give them 2 hours apart from the meds!
Posted by: GrandJan

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 08:36 PM

Originally Posted By: BowWowMeow
One addition: give probiotics when you give any kind of dewormer. Talk about taking all of the good stuff out of the digestive tract! sick

And I agree to continue with the probiotics for a couple of weeks post meds. And be sure to give them 2 hours apart from the meds!


Thanks, Ruth - did not know that. I have your whole post now in my reference notes.
Posted by: Wisc.Tiger_Val

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 08:43 PM

If I can I go 4 hours between ABX and Probiotics.
Posted by: GrandJan

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 08:48 PM

Probiotics are all natural, correct? I take one (yes, I'm getting older and my tummy is failing me frown ), so if the need arises, I can give the same one to my dogs?
Posted by: LifeAsMe

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 08:56 PM

I'm assuming it should be 2-4 hours between probiotics and all meds?

And back to the original question - Do they need to be "stabilized" or "coated"? Is there a difference between the two?

I ask because one article I read said that if they needed to be refrigerated then they wouldn't survive the heat in our bodies. I don't know how true that is because I had to keep mine in the refrigerator and I know they were helping me.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 09:31 PM

Originally Posted By: LifeAsMe
Banshee isn't on an antibiotic. She does take tagamet which reduces the stomach acid. The theory was this could be messing with her balance and causing some other problems. So it's possible that probiotics are needed for other meds than just antibiotics?


I actually may have this backwards now that I think more carefully about it.

Stomach acid is important to help eliminate bad bacteria. So a drug that reduces stomach acid, will favor the growth of any bad bacteria. If you look up proton pump inhibitors, stronger versions of the H2 antagonists such as tagamet, you'll see that they are starting to link the use of the PPI's with the very serious infection of Clostridium difficile in people. This infection can be deadly, can also cause some people to have their entire colon be removed.

Therefore, probiotics when taking any kind of stomach acid reducer, will help nurture the good bacteria and reduce the chance of the bad bacteria taking over.
Posted by: LifeAsMe

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 09:34 PM

that's pretty interesting. I think I need to look into her tagamet/thyroid med interaction also.

http://www.mythyroid.com/drugs.html

Quote:
Patients with a specific type of coexisting stomach inflammation (atrophic gastritis) who have reduced gastric acid secretion may exhibit modest impairment in the absorption of thyroid hormone, resulting in increase requirements for thyroxine. Conversely, treatment of H. Pylori in some patients may improve thyroxine absorption, leading to increased levels of circulating t4 and potentially a need for reduction in the dose of thyroxine. These findings imply that a certain level of gastric acid production is required for optimal absorption of thyroid hormone. Furthermore, institution of therapy for gastritis with proton pump inhibitors is frequently associated with a rise in levels of TSH-see Effect of proton pump inhibitors on serum thyroid-stimulating hormone level in euthyroid patients treated with levothyroxine for hypothyroidism. Endocr Pract. 2007 Jul-Aug;13(4):345-9.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 09:42 PM

Originally Posted By: LifeAsMe
And back to the original question - Do they need to be "stabilized" or "coated"? Is there a difference between the two?


I may be wrong cuz I'm kinda making this up, but I think that stabilized may mean that it doesn't need to be refrigerated. There are coated probiotics that are refrigerated, but supposedly coated so that they survive the stomach acid and are released in the intestines.

I really don't know what works the best and what doesn't. What I do know is that it is variable, even between dogs on this board!

With Max, I use Primal Defense from www.iherb.com : http://www.gardenoflife.com/ProductsforL...38/Default.aspx and also Philips Colon Health from Costco: http://phillipsrelief.com/products/colon-health-probiotic-caps I try to remember to take one of the Phillip's ones too, and they do work.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 09:44 PM

Originally Posted By: LifeAsMe
that's pretty interesting. I think I need to look into her tagamet/thyroid med interaction also.

http://www.mythyroid.com/drugs.html

Quote:
Patients with a specific type of coexisting stomach inflammation (atrophic gastritis) who have reduced gastric acid secretion may exhibit modest impairment in the absorption of thyroid hormone, resulting in increase requirements for thyroxine. Conversely, treatment of H. Pylori in some patients may improve thyroxine absorption, leading to increased levels of circulating t4 and potentially a need for reduction in the dose of thyroxine. These findings imply that a certain level of gastric acid production is required for optimal absorption of thyroid hormone. Furthermore, institution of therapy for gastritis with proton pump inhibitors is frequently associated with a rise in levels of TSH-see Effect of proton pump inhibitors on serum thyroid-stimulating hormone level in euthyroid patients treated with levothyroxine for hypothyroidism. Endocr Pract. 2007 Jul-Aug;13(4):345-9.


Interesting.

They did find recently that taking coffee with thyroid meds may cause a problem, but I don't think that Banshee is a coffee drinker wink
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 09:45 PM

Originally Posted By: GrandJan
Probiotics are all natural, correct? I take one (yes, I'm getting older and my tummy is failing me frown ), so if the need arises, I can give the same one to my dogs?


Yes, you can give the same to your dogs smile

I don't know if they have synthetic probiotics???
Posted by: LifeAsMe

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 09:45 PM

That makes sense Lisa! I know the ones I took worked well for me and they had to be refrigerated.

http://naturessunshine.wordpress.com/2006/03/30/probiotic-eleven/
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 10:20 PM

Originally Posted By: MaxaLisa
...I think that stabilized may mean that it doesn't need to be refrigerated. There are coated probiotics that are refrigerated, but supposedly coated so that they survive the stomach acid and are released in the intestines.


The key words on the coating are "enteric coating", and they may or may not be refrigerated. I don't know if stabilized probiotics have the same action.
Posted by: Woodreb

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 11:17 PM

Originally Posted By: LifeAsMe
And back to the original question - Do they need to be "stabilized" or "coated"? Is there a difference between the two?

I ask because one article I read said that if they needed to be refrigerated then they wouldn't survive the heat in our bodies. I don't know how true that is because I had to keep mine in the refrigerator and I know they were helping me.


Have you seen this article?

http://www.articlesbase.com/health-articles/can-acidophilus-be-stabilized-553592.html

It talks about the reasons for stabilizing, but is vague on exactly what stabilizing (as a process) means. A coating, such as an enteric coating, is usually put on a tablet to help protect against moisture and air (oxygen). But I don't think that the coating would offer much, if any, protection against heat.

Based on this, I am going to speculate that stabilized, especially as a way to retard the sensitivity to heat, is different than a coated dosage form, which is probably trying to add protection to the product against air and moisture.

And what I got from that article is that even if a probiotic is stabilized you should still refrigerate to protect from heat until you are going to use it.
Posted by: LifeAsMe

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 11:19 PM

Great article! Thanks Johanna!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/21/10 11:43 PM

Originally Posted By: Woodreb
And what I got from that article is that even if a probiotic is stabilized you should still refrigerate to protect from heat until you are going to use it.


Mine says specifically "do NOT refrigerate", and also to replace cap, which leads me to believe that they should not be exposed to air.

This link has an interesting argument against enteric coating, and also notes that it's the strain that is acid resistent, and not to rely on a coating:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_2003_Feb-March/ai_97994369/?tag=content;col1
Posted by: Woodreb

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/22/10 12:31 AM

Lisa,

That is an interesting article, although I thought the sudden discussion of mitochondrial dysfunction seemed to be from some other article and didn't exactly fit with the topic.

I can see the point about the coating process although, I also note that the article is from 2003 and would be interested to see if any other studies, like benefit or no benefit to the use of an enteric coating, has been performed since then. I can certainly see that capsules to protect the contents have the least chance of causing degradation, although since I'm not a formulator I'm really not familiar with the enteric coating process.

Perhaps the particular strains in the product you are using also have some low temperature sensitivity?
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/22/10 03:10 AM

I thought it was weird that the article side-tracked for awhile...maybe it was excerpted from somewhere?

I didn't notice the date on that article.

Here is an interesting blurb:
"While enteric coating keeps the ingredients in, it does not necessarily keep stomach acid out. Additionally, the process of enteric coating requires high temperatures which can also damage the fragile bacteria."
http://www.acidophiluspearls.com/

I have used acidophilus pearls before, and they worked well.
Posted by: Woodreb

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/22/10 09:44 AM

You've got my curisity aroused about the coating process. I'm going to talk to a formulator friend of mine next weekmand find out a little more about the process.

It's an interesting blurb - I wish it was not in the context of a sales promotion.

It may be hard to get more impartial information because I think a lot of this information may be handled as trade secrets (speculation) and you're not necessarily going to find it even in a patent application.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Probiotics - Coated or Stabilized? - 11/22/10 12:56 PM

It'll be very interesting to see what you find out!
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Probiotics - Saccharomyces - 11/27/10 01:33 AM

I remember seeing a dog on the boards test positive to the fungus Saccharomyces, and recalling that it is often found in probiotics, particularly when fighting the nasty infection Clostridium difficile - it is often used to fight antibiotic-associated diarrhea. Turns out that my Max tested positive for this allergy too.

I wanted to be sure to add this to this thread:

Patients are recommended to stop the intake of this medicine and to immediately contact their health care provider if they experience the following side effects: breathing difficulty, tightness in the throat, tightness in the chest, chest pain, wheezing and skin hives, rash, itching and swollen skin. Patients who experience these side effects might be allergic to Saccharomyces Boulardii. From here: https://www.pharmacyescrow.com/s34133-s-SACCHAROMYCES-BOULARDII.aspx

As a further side note, Max also tested positive for allergies to milk, carrot, and potato. I would say that 96% of the probiotics I looked at in the store today contained at least 1 of those ingredients. Who knew potato starch is often found in probiotics? So for the very sensitive dog, it may take a couple of different tries at finding the right probiotic.
Posted by: Woodreb

Re: Probiotics - Saccharomyces - 11/30/10 02:00 PM

I talked with my formulator friend this morning and yes, the enteric coating process is done at fairly high temperatures. The tablet needs to be "warm" for the coating to stick and the object is to spray the coating on quickly and "flash" off the solvent. If the solvent is water, then the tablet is warmed to around 30-40C before spraying the coating on. The coating would be at a higher temperature than the tablet.

There are other processes where something like ethanol might be used as the solvent (more expensive process because of the cost of the ethanol). In these cases, the tablet would not have to be as warm as when using water as the solvent, nor would the coating be at as high a temperature. We didn't get in to specifics about the tablet temperature in this case.

Long and short - a good formulator would choose a coating process appropriate for the tablet characteristics. If there is a known thermal stability issue, they would opt for the more expensive process to keep the temperatures down.

I know this doesn't answer the specific questions about the enteric coating's useful in the probiotic. But it was interesting to shed a little more light onto the process itself and the fact that not all of the enteric coating techniques are necessarily done at high temeprature.

I think that arguments against the use of the coating maybe valid, but when in the context of marketing text you have to understand that they might be only telling a part of the story to build a better case for their product. It's not a lie, but it may not be the whole truth.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Probiotics - Saccharomyces - 11/30/10 08:05 PM

This is cool information, thank you smile

Interesting that there are different was to process an enteric coating. I can see where this might get lost in advertising, or also people just not understanding.

This board has people that just know the coolest stuff smile
Posted by: Woodreb

Re: Probiotics - Saccharomyces - 11/30/10 08:59 PM

Or at least have friends they can ask. laugh

I'm an analytical chemist, but I've always had some interest in how things that are done by hand on a small scale are "re-invented" to go to mass production. So it's neat to learn about some of these things myself.
Posted by: MaxaLisa

Re: Probiotics - Saccharomyces - 11/30/10 09:17 PM

Originally Posted By: Woodreb
Or at least have friends they can ask. laugh


That always helps too!!

Yes, it is nice to see the process "all the way through", so to speak.